Heritage sues Gibson

[Genericmusic]

3 hours ago, bobmeyrick said:

They weren't put off by the so-called "ugly" headstock? ?

[bobmeyrick]

4 hours ago, LK155 said:

Might this refer to the Harmony line?  We'll likely never know the answers until the 1991 confidential agreement becomes not-so-confidential.

 

Wouldn't have thought so, unless Gibson have a line of bolt-on neck guitars.

[TalismanRich]

Agreed, Bob.   Besides,  I don't think that Heritage is actually making the Harmony guitars.   They are two different companies.  I think Bandlab owns 100% of Harmony,  Plaza/Bandlab owns Heritage.  I'm sure there's separate accounting for the companies.   It would be like having a Taco Bell and a KFC in the same store.  Dell Taco can't sue KFC because the tacos resemble theirs.

[Gitterman]

I wouldn't own a Gibbons that was not made in K-zoo

[bolero]

I disliked Gibbons under the ownership of Henry J

these new owners appear to be just as pathetic

[rockabilly69]

On 3/16/2020 at 8:30 AM, Gitterman said:

I wouldn't own a Gibbons that was not made in K-zoo

Do you think that Gibsons are inferior to Heritage, or do you just hate the Gibbons company, and their business practices? 

[deytookerjaabs]

2 hours ago, rockabilly69 said:

Do you just hate the Gibbons company, and their business practices? 

 

I've been trying to figure out what is worse. Gibbons feigning "IP Protection" in order to slowly penalize other guitar companies following the rules. 

 

Or, the fact that people actually believe Gibbons is doing this out of concern for their IP. It's quite clear that vibe we all got from the "Play Authentic" video was 100% spot on, foul play under the guise of self-preservation. 

[rockabilly69]

1 minute ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 

I've been trying to figure out what is worse. Gibbons feigning "IP Protection" in order to slowly penalize other guitar companies following the rules. 

 

Or, the fact that people actually believe Gibbons is doing this out of concern for their IP. It's quite clear that vibe we all got from the "Play Authentic" video was 100% spot on, foul play under the guise of self-preservation. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't you just buy a new Gibbons Historic LP? I just bought a 2019 R4. That said, I think their business practices suck, but I LOVE their guitars. The R4 is stellar!

[deytookerjaabs]

4 minutes ago, rockabilly69 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't you just buy a new Gibbons Historic LP? I just bought a 2019 R4. That said, I think their business practices suck, but I LOVE their guitars. The R4 is stellar!

 

 

I did before this, lol! I did sell it though and it was bought damn near cost. 

I would have thought after the PRS thing Gibbons would stick to actual counterfeiters and old-fashioned IP Protection. But, we all know business isn't always pretty, this culture of management with ZERO principles grosses me out. 

Gibbons is going after companies now that ran their guitar designs through Gibbons first for approval!! Less respect than the Mafia. 

[rockabilly69]

2 minutes ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 

 

I did before this, lol! I did sell it though and it was bought damn near cost. 

I would have thought after the PRS thing Gibbons would stick to actual counterfeiters and old-fashioned IP Protection. But, we all know business isn't always pretty, this culture of management with ZERO principles grosses me out. 

Gibbons is going after companies now that ran their guitar designs through Gibbons first for approval!! Less respect than the Mafia. 

Well glad you didn't take a bath on the LP.  And yes, low to no principles business seems to be their way. That said, I do like what Gibbons is doing going back to core models, which I think is a good idea, so maybe, just maybe, with some success, they'll slow down on chasing these lawsuits. I can say this though, when it comes to Les Paul style "singlecut" guitars, I think other than maybe some high end boutique builders (Yaron, Bartlett), for me, Gibbons does it best for the tone and feel that I chase. I also like my Heritage H150s and for "biting" style of LP tone my 2015 is stellar. Hopefully I won't be buying an more LP style guitars. The only reason I bought the R4 was because I sold a R6 that was too heavy.

[Kuz]

51 minutes ago, rockabilly69 said:

Well glad you didn't take a bath on the LP.  And yes, low to no principles business seems to be their way. That said, I do like what Gibbons is doing going back to core models, which I think is a good idea, so maybe, just maybe, with some success, they'll slow down on chasing these lawsuits. I can say this though, when it comes to Les Paul style "singlecut" guitars, I think other than maybe some high end boutique builders (Yaron, Bartlett), for me, Gibbons does it best for the tone and feel that I chase. I also like my Heritage H150s and for "biting" style of LP tone my 2015 is stellar. Hopefully I won't be buying an more LP style guitars. The only reason I bought the R4 was because I sold a R6 that was too heavy.

Try a Collings City Limits or McInturff Carolina Custom.   Just try one before commenting to see if they are in the same ballpark as a LP.  And everyone has their own personal idea of what the perfect LP sounds like.  For me, I like a clear, balance tone, with blooming overtones.  So my Collings City Limits and McInturff Carolina Custom does it for me.  And those of us that play in a band context, might have a different tonal need from a solo artist/recording artist.  It's all good, what ever works for each of us.... works for each of us.  

[Kuz]

SO..... I have a question.   With Heritage suing Gibbons, after Gibbons was leaning on Heritage.....

Why don't you ever see any of the acoustic guitar companies suing over body shapes?

Collings, Bourgeois, Santa Cruz, and countless other companies make the same shaped Dreadnoughts, OM, OOO, OO, O shaped guitars.    Many companies make their own Slope Shoulder Southern Jumbos, J-45, J-35 shaped guitars.   And you don't see Martin or Gibbons suing anyone.  

So why no acoustic guitar law suits?

[Genericmusic]

3 hours ago, rockabilly69 said:

Do you think that Gibsons are inferior to Heritage, or do you just hate the Gibbons company, and their business practices? 

I think the first 5-10 years after Kalamazoo many of their Nashville guitars are suspect. Most likely due to automation and the learning curve for new employees. Pete Moreno was their custom shop for at least 3-5 years after the move. That says something. I always like the Montana custom shop acoustic guitars. There were some good luthiers in that shop. I had a Memphis shop  ES-335  and a J-45 in my shop over the past couple years. The 335 was so so or okay. The J-45 had such a bad set up that it would have made a Heritage look exquisite.  Once it was set up properly I thought it to be very good. I wasn't crazy about its on-board electronics but then again my shop amp isn't something I'd take to a gig. So in answer to you question, yes some years they are inferior, other years on par with the old plant and Heritage. Growing up relatively close to the Gibbons Factory and playing them most of my life I would say there is nothing better that a Kalamazoo built Gibbons except that ugly headed ? step sister.

[rockabilly69]

26 minutes ago, Kuz said:

Try a Collings City Limits or McInturff Carolina Custom.   Just try one before commenting to see if they are in the same ballpark as a LP.  And everyone has their own personal idea of what the perfect LP sounds like.  For me, I like a clear, balance tone, with blooming overtones.  So my Collings City Limits and McInturff Carolina Custom does it for me.  And those of us that play in a band context, might have a different tonal need from a solo artist/recording artist.  It's all good, what ever works for each of us.... works for each of us.  

I have played more than a few Collings City Limits, and they are fine guitars, but I prefer Historic Gibsons, they are the benchmark for me. Funny you should mention Terry McInturff (which I've also played), as I've been talking to him about modding one of my Zemaitis guitars (the tone circuit specifically). It would have been done already, but the last few weeks have been trying for me as I hit a deer coming home from a gig, losing all my gigs till this virus thing is under control, and today and Earthquake that hit 30 miles from my house!

[rockabilly69]

5 minutes ago, Genericmusic said:

I think the first 5-10 years after Kalamazoo many of their Nashville guitars are suspect. Most likely due to automation, and the learning curve for new employees. Pete Moreno was their custom shop for at least 3-5 years after the move. That says something. I always like the Montana custom shop acoustic guitars. There were some good luthiers in that shop. I had a Memphis shop  ES-335  and a J-45 in my shop over the past couple years. The 335 was so so or okay. The J-45 had such a bad set up that it would have made a Heritage look exquisite.  Once it was set up properly I thought it to be very good. I wasn't crazy about its on-board electronics but then again my shop amp isn't something I'd take to a gig. So in answer to you question, yes some years they are inferior, other years on par with the old plant and Heritage. Growing up relatively close to the Gibbons Factory and playing them most of my life I would say there is nothing better that a Kalamazoo built Gibbons except that ugly headed ? step sister.

Well you and I have totally different experiences as my modern 2015 J45 custom shop never needed a thing done to it, and now with age, it hangs with my all-time favorite acoustic guitar,  my 1964 J45. As a matter of fact I keep my 64 at my project studio, and my 2015 at my house where I have some decent recording equipment. They are the first guitars I grab to record acoustic rhythms with. My J45 didn't come with electronics, but I don't like most factory installed electronics. I know very little about ES335s, as I've never been a fan of semi-hollows, so I can't comment on them. But as for the Gibbons custom shop, ever since about 2013, I've never played any LP types that were so consistent. They are generally light, resonant, and have the neck shape that I like. My 2014 R7 is bone stock, and my R4 is stock other than the wraptail and studs, it now has a Mojoaxe wrap, and tonepros locking studs, but it was that way when I bought it. My other custom shop / historics models, a 2010 SG Special, 2010 R0, and a 2006 J100 Xtra are all killer guitars. My main way that I judge guitars is how they feel when I play them, and how well they mate with my amplifiers, and how they sit in recordings. All these guitars pass with flying colors. My Heritages also pass with flying colors in these regards but I put a lot of money into them to get them there. I didn't mind fixing them up because they were reasonably priced, especially the one I bought used!

[rockabilly69]

1 hour ago, Kuz said:

SO..... I have a question.   With Heritage suing Gibbons, after Gibbons was leaning on Heritage.....

Why don't you ever see any of the acoustic guitar companies suing over body shapes?

Collings, Bourgeois, Santa Cruz, and countless other companies make the same shaped Dreadnoughts, OM, OOO, OO, O shaped guitars.    Many companies make their own Slope Shoulder Southern Jumbos, J-45, J-35 shaped guitars.   And you don't see Martin or Gibbons suing anyone.  

So why no acoustic guitar law suits?

I wonder the same thing!

[Genericmusic]

58 minutes ago, rockabilly69 said:

Well you and I have totally different experiences as my modern 2015 J45 custom shop never needed a thing done to it, and now with age, it hangs with my all-time favorite acoustic guitar,  my 1964 J45. As a matter of fact I keep my 64 at my project studio, and my 2015 at my house where I have some decent recording equipment. They are the first guitars I grab to record acoustic rhythms with. My J45 didn't come with electronics, but I don't like most factory installed electronics. I know very little about ES335s, as I've never been a fan of semi-hollows, so I can't comment on them. But as for the Gibbons custom shop, ever since about 2013, I've never played any LP types that were so consistent. They are generally light, resonant, and have the neck shape that I like. My 2014 R7 is bone stock, and my R4 is stock other than the wraptail and studs, it now has a Mojoaxe wrap, and tonepros locking studs, but it was that way when I bought it. My other custom shop / historics models, a 2010 SG Special, 2010 R0, and a 2006 J100 Xtra are all killer guitars. My main way that I judge guitars is how they feel when I play them, and how well they mate with my amplifiers, and how they sit in recordings. All these guitars pass with flying colors. My Heritages also pass with flying colors in these regards but I put a lot of money into them to get them there. I didn't mind fixing them up because they were reasonably priced, especially the one I bought used!

I think we're talking decades apart, post move and after the factory rat learning curve. Right after the move and for quite a while I thought there instruments were suspect or hit and miss. As for the current models, the Memphis 335 just didn't feel right as I said it was okay.  On the J-45, the saddle was too high and the nut a mediocre carve. They were switched out to bone and cut the way the owner wanted. I thought it sounded good but no comparison to my '60 J-45. I had a '69 ES-335 that was to die for. I had to sell to pay for a divorce. I still miss it today and that was 30 years ago. But I am an archtop guy. Never cared much for Les Paul models, heavy didn't feel right for me nor lent itself to what I was playing. For electric my Eagle and my thinline tele is all I need or want. On the other hand my J-45 is always and arms lengths away.  It's earned its keep and deserves to be kept and treated accordingly.        

 

[rockabilly69]

10 minutes ago, Genericmusic said:

On the other hand my J-45 is always and arms lengths away.  It's earned its keep and deserves to be kept and treated accordingly.        

 

Well that we can agree on, here's my '64 earning it's keep...

 

 

[deytookerjaabs]

Back the trademark lawsuit stuff. 

 

Gibbons's largest export market is Japan and has been for decades since Japan turned their economy around enough for regular folk to be able to afford Gibbons imports.

Gibbons has zero trademark in Japan's domestic guitar building market. Think about that.

 

Thus, why you see companies like Martin still doing incredibly well despite all the clones. Same goes for many other examples. This IP enforcement beyond patents into trademark law in the guitar industry is really just using the threat of legal fees to either extort cash flow from other builders or scare them into bankruptcy hoping to gain .1% market share by making the market around them smaller.

I expect IP Trolling from Microsoft, not from folks in the guitar business, we should be better. 

[Gitfiddler]

OK, I get the rabid Gibbons fans of Japan.  They've cultivated that market very successfully over the years. 

But what about China's Eastman Guitars?  Why aren't Gibbons's IP/Trademark lawyers aiming at them?  Have you seen their solid body models? 

Here's the SB59 (Solid Body 59)

 

And how about their headstock design?  Look familiar?

[rockabilly69]

2 hours ago, Gitfiddler said:

OK, I get the rabid Gibbons fans of Japan.  They've cultivated that market very successfully over the years. 

But what about China's Eastman Guitars?  Why aren't Gibbons's IP/Trademark lawyers aiming at them?  Have you seen their solid body models? 

Here's the SB59 (Solid Body 59)

 

And how about their headstock design?  Look familiar?

I agree they should be another on Gibbons's hitlist, they are clearly ripping off the headstock design. Gibbons needs to be unilateral in their decision to go after their "ripped off" designs, why they let some people go, and then go after others is beyond me. Maybe it's because they were so close to financial ruin not long ago, maybe they only have so much money to chase lawsuits, and they are going after their biggest perceived threats! And from what I can see, these new Heritage guitars are looking like a threat to me.

[deytookerjaabs]

1 hour ago, rockabilly69 said:

 And from what I can see, these new Heritage guitars are looking like a threat to me.

 

What new Heritage guitars? 

[rockabilly69]

11 hours ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 

What new Heritage guitars? 

The one's that the new guard are putting out, seems to me the QC is improving at the end of the line. And a new H150 or H525 is going to be much cheaper than it's Gibbons counterpart!

[DetroitBlues]

On 3/14/2020 at 10:52 AM, TalismanRich said:

I don't think Gibbons never considered Heritage much of a rival.  As long as they had limited distribution, and were only selling about the same number of guitars yearly as Gibbons puts out in a couple of day, there was no "threat"

Now that they are in MF, Sweetwater and other "major" outlets, it could affect their market. 

Too bad, so sad.  They made their agreement.  They'll lose this round too.   Before you know it, they'll lose all their "trademark" protection except for the headstock, just like Fender.

I think it came down to saber-rattling to see who, if anyone would cave, other than one man shops, I doubt Gibbons had any effect on the industry.

[Kuz]

1 hour ago, DetroitBlues said:

I think it came down to saber-rattling to see who, if anyone would cave, other than one man shops, I doubt Gibbons had any effect on the industry.

Let's face it, as a son of a BILLIONAIRE, Heritage is not a beloved little Mom & Pop company anymore.  Heritage is a target because the owner has a sh!t load of money.  I believe that is the main reason they were targeted.... because they are worth the effort to target!