What will happen with Heritage archtops?

[MartyGrass]

To build archtops well you have to build archtops.

What I mean is that there is a learning curve for many aspects of the build, starting with acquiring the right woods.  Shaving the bracing and carving the top and back are crucial parts.

I'm concerned that the low demand for traditional archtops will lead to poorer quality in those built or the decision to drop those builds.

I recently heard an interview with an entrepreneur in Seattle who makes dinners for people and delivers them refrigerated to their homes as a subscription service.  She pointed out that her grandmother cooked in the kitchen daily.  Her mother is part of a generation that knew how to cook but didn't have time.  The lady interviewed said she is part of a generation that doesn't even know how to cook.

There is a similar situation in NASA.  Experience and skills are lost without use.

Pete Farmer certainly has experience.  But there was a day when there were several guys with decades of experience carving maple and spruce, shaping the braces, and at least to some degree, tuning the bodies.  They each did it differently and defended their techniques as best, in a friendly way.  Jim Hutchins, Marv Lamb and Aaron Cowles did the work differently, and each could recognize the work of the others.  Those were masters.

All of this is perhaps moot.  Few people can hear the difference between an artisan built archtop and one that is assembled fairly well.  Few are willing to pay for that difference, especially with Eastman building good guitars at a lower price point.

On a personal note, I hate to see the loss.

In my nostalgic mood I've included some articles on how things were at 225 Parsons Street in the decades past.  While I never met Ted McCarty, I've met many people who knew him personally.  He gave us some of the most played electric guitar designs in history.  The last article was about a local doctor who corresponded with Gibbons to help him decide what kind of guitar to buy.  That doctor, Doug Haddock, became my family doctor until I was an adult.  He'd come over to my house when any of us were sick, drink coffee and blab with my parents, and give us shots.  His two sons were close friends of mine.  The point though of the story is how much attention Gibbons gave this man through letter correspondence.  Gibbons was like that and Heritage was similar.  Enjoy.

https://www.vintageguitar.com/2826/ted-mccarty/

https://reverb.com/news/former-Gibbons-chief-ted-mccarty-on-tonewoods-and-the-problems-of-top-heavy-management

https://reverb.com/news/gallery-1950s-letters-with-Gibbons-concerning-one-doctors-electric-guitar-purchase  

[MartyGrass]

The Dr, Haddock guitar listing.

 

https://reverb.com/item/1322638-1956-Gibbons-les-paul-custom-black-beauty-100-original-w-ohsc?show_sold=true 

[skydog52]

Thanks Mark. These are good articles and stories. 

I share your concern on where the Archtop builds are going to go. I think the market has shrunk quite a bit and I don't know if it was that big compared to solid body rockers all the "kids" want to play.

Personally I've always preferred the sound of a semi hollow/semi solid.

Now I have to rename all my semi hollows to semi solids. 

[bolero]

hey, Martygrass thx for posting those articles. very interesting!

agree on the hollowbody situtation, I hope they start building more of them again.

but again, it depends on what people are buying. maybe if Kurt Cobain had played a hollowbody jazz gtr they would be more popular :D

[TalismanRich]

I wonder  about the glory days at Gibby on Parsons Street, when they had hundreds of people working there, making Super 400s,  L5s,  J200s,  etc.   They weren't all experienced luthiers.    People still cherish those instruments.   Solid body guitars were the minority of what they were making, people were obviously making archtops and acoustic instruments.   Luckily, people can be taught and guided on how to do things they don't know.    We still have Jim,  Ren,  and Pete in there to guide people. 

We still have chefs.   As long as we can find young people who love music and woodworking,  I think we'll have people making guitars.

[FredZepp]

That Ted McCarty article is a winner.   

Quote

 

Q:People always seem to have a particular image in mind of what Gibbons is, or ought to be, or was.

A: That’s right, and Gibbons knows this. Recently [speaking in 1992], I told a couple of their fellas from the factory [laughs]. You know, they made some very poor guitars out of Nashville when they first got started down there [in 1975]—very bad. And there were a lot of dealers throughout the country that would buy Gibbonss, and they insisted on ones that were made in Kalamazoo. They would not buy one if it came from Nashville. Over the years, they have improved, and I’m told by some guitar players that they’re pretty good guitars now.

 

Ha.. and this quote about Mary Ford...  I had to look that one up.  pulchritudinous = beautiful ... 

Quote

 

She was a good player, I think.

Oh yes, a good guitarist as well as a good singer. And also a very pulchritudinous lady.

 

 

[Genericmusic]

4 hours ago, MartyGrass said:

...there was a day when there were several guys with decades of experience carving maple and spruce, shaping the braces, and at least to some degree, tuning the bodies.  They each did it differently and defended their techniques as best, in a friendly way.  Jim Hutchins, Marv Lamb and Aaron Cowles did the work differently, and each could recognize the work of the others.  Those were masters. 

 

Very informative. Thanks for posting. 

[rwinking]

I was out at the Gib-son acoustic plant a few years back, hanging out with Ren Ferguson, the master builder. He was showing me some tops that were "carved" with some kind of laser tool invented by Boeing in Seattle. Gib-son was allowing him to build some archtop here, but the rest all came out of TN. He held them up and had me thump them and they sounded very musical. He said that if they try to carve a top that thin, they might lose two out of three. He kind of liked the idea. So if carving a top is important to the sound, even though it may become a lost art, there will still be archtops out there that sound great.

I don't know if Gibbons is using the tool as Ren left them for Guild.

[MartyGrass]

7 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

I wonder  about the glory days at Gibby on Parsons Street, when they had hundreds of people working there, making Super 400s,  L5s,  J200s,  etc.   They weren't all experienced luthiers.   

They did segregate those builds to the experienced employees, at least they made that effort.  Pete Moreno talked about this just last week when I was visiting him.  For example, even buffing was done by senior buffers.  He talked about some of the less experienced guys would occasionally have a guitar get loose and be hurled to the floor.  It's one thing to break a Les Paul.  It's another to crack a L-5.

Aaron Cowles assembled the lion's share of F-5 mandolins and was one of four who assembled the carved archtop bodies during much of the 60s and 70s.

In the 1950s and 1960s Gibbons made about 25-40 L-5s and Super 400s each.  Add a few Johnny Smiths and that was it for carved archtops.  They also made some fine archtops.

Compare that to the surges brought on first by Elvis and then by the Beatles when Gibbons made up to 400 guitars a day.  Back then they'd say anything with a Gibbons name and strings on it sold.

 

 

[Gitfiddler]

Great thread, Mark.  Considering the relatively low volume of archtops made annually by Gib-son back in the day, it is amazing that Heritage made so many, especially during their initial production years.

[MartyGrass]

That's 25-40 L-5s and 25-40 Super 400s per year, not total for all years.  I should proof read before I send.

[kennyv4]

Marty, thanks for posting those articles, very interesting.  I believe that part of being a master of anything is to pass on your knowledge to a deserving apprentice, just as John D'Angelico passed his knowledge onto Jimmy D'Aquisto.  D'Aquisto took over hand crafting D'Angelico guitars in the 1950's.  As long as their is an interest in high quality hollow body guitars their will be a highly skilled luthier to make them.  The sad truth is there will be fewer and fewer of these craftsman and prices will continue to rise.     

[tfb]

Thank you for posting this!  I think that things aren't perhaps, as bleak as they seem.  But the very short answer is that if people want good archtops to exist they do need to be willing to buy good archtops: makers that stay in business are not going to build guitars they cannot sell.  That sounds kind of cynical, but, well, I think it's true: it's up to us.

But I think it's easily possible to overestimate the number of people you need who know how to do something for it to persist as a skill: the number is pretty small.  I think your cooking example is a case in point: obviously less people cook than once did, but is good cooking dying out?  Well, my wife (whose mother could not cook and whose father did not) has made some of the best food I have ever eaten, and I have been to expensive and good (not always the same thing) restaurants (and yes, it's a bit sexist that she cooks and I don't, but that's sometimes how things are: she also makes the money).  Cooking is not dying out, not anywhere near.

A better example would be large-format cameras: wooden boxes with bellows which use sheet film (or plates, but usually film unless you're doing wet-plate of some kind).  The market for these is ... small: perhaps a few hundred a year, perhaps less.  And people do worry that the last maker will die.  But in 2011 I bought a new one, which is just a wonderful thing: it looks like it should (people ask me how old it is), but various bits which would traditionally be brass or wood are carbon-fibre and titanium. CNC machining was certainly used for parts of it and 3d-printing might have been. It is lighter and, frankly, better than a traditionally-made one.  And it was not that expensive.  It's lovely.

I think the same is true for archtops: the market can get quite small before the knowledge dies out, and I don't think it's very close to that small yet.  But people do need to want to play them and be willing to buy them.  But there are enough people with a lot of disposable income to keep builders in business I think: a new Leica Monochrom (yes, Leica make dedicated B/W digital cameras) and a 35mm lens for it is just shy of £10,000, and Leica keep making these things because people keep buying them.  That money would buy really quite a nice archtop.

[MartyGrass]

1 hour ago, tfb said:

Thank you for posting this!  I think that things aren't perhaps, as bleak as they seem.  But the very short answer is that if people want good archtops to exist they do need to be willing to buy good archtops: makers that stay in business are not going to build guitars they cannot sell.  That sounds kind of cynical, but, well, I think it's true: it's up to us.

But I think it's easily possible to overestimate the number of people you need who know how to do something for it to persist as a skill: the number is pretty small.  I think your cooking example is a case in point: obviously less people cook than once did, but is good cooking dying out?  Well, my wife (whose mother could not cook and whose father did not) has made some of the best food I have ever eaten, and I have been to expensive and good (not always the same thing) restaurants (and yes, it's a bit sexist that she cooks and I don't, but that's sometimes how things are: she also makes the money).  Cooking is not dying out, not anywhere near.

A better example would be large-format cameras: wooden boxes with bellows which use sheet film (or plates, but usually film unless you're doing wet-plate of some kind).  The market for these is ... small: perhaps a few hundred a year, perhaps less.  And people do worry that the last maker will die.  But in 2011 I bought a new one, which is just a wonderful thing: it looks like it should (people ask me how old it is), but various bits which would traditionally be brass or wood are carbon-fibre and titanium. CNC machining was certainly used for parts of it and 3d-printing might have been. It is lighter and, frankly, better than a traditionally-made one.  And it was not that expensive.  It's lovely.

I think the same is true for archtops: the market can get quite small before the knowledge dies out, and I don't think it's very close to that small yet.  But people do need to want to play them and be willing to buy them.  But there are enough people with a lot of disposable income to keep builders in business I think: a new Leica Monochrom (yes, Leica make dedicated B/W digital cameras) and a 35mm lens for it is just shy of £10,000, and Leica keep making these things because people keep buying them.  That money would buy really quite a nice archtop.

In a way home cooking is dying out.  It won't cease to exist, but it will be more of a novelty.  The persistence of cooking depends on several factors.  These include the time to do it, the interest in doing it, and the tools and ingredients.  Lastly though it requires practice and a teacher.  Home cooking is much less common nowadays and usually involves prepackaged food.  Home cooking is going the way of home farming.

Would I rather have a meal prepared by someone who does this every day from scratch or someone who does it very occasionally?  One is comfortable with the details and has already learned from mistakes.

Transition to guitars.  Heritage, Gibbons, Guild won't be making enough high end archtops to keep up with wood sourcing and all of the details of carving if they make few high end archtops.  They can't.  Someone who has made 40 will be training the new guy.  Good archtops will come from a few sources in the world.  They will cost more due to the lower volume.  And there will be less diversity.

None of this matters if there is little interest in full sized archtops.  Apathy may be the driving force.

 

[TalismanRich]

Anyone who in interested in learning the art of archtop guitar making can go to Nazareth PA.   Dale Unger, who does American Archtop Guitars runs the Nazareth Guitar Institute, where you can learn and actually build a guitar yourself.   

There are still quite a few folks making guitars.    They are small shops, and the guitars are expensive, but you can get them.  Monteleone,  Marchione,  Campallone,  Benedetto, Buscarino,  Comins, etc.   These are the higher end.  

On the more mass produced factories, you have Heritage,  Eastman, D'Angelico,  Peerless, Godin, Loar,  Ibanez,  Guild.

Maybe the best news is that Gibbons seems to have abandoned the archtop market entirely, which means that smaller builders get to take over that part of the market.

[bobmeyrick]

2 hours ago, tfb said:

A better example would be large-format cameras: wooden boxes with bellows which use sheet film (or plates, but usually film unless you're doing wet-plate of some kind).  The market for these is ... small: perhaps a few hundred a year, perhaps less.  And people do worry that the last maker will die.  But in 2011 I bought a new one, which is just a wonderful thing: it looks like it should (people ask me how old it is), but various bits which would traditionally be brass or wood are carbon-fibre and titanium. CNC machining was certainly used for parts of it and 3d-printing might have been. It is lighter and, frankly, better than a traditionally-made one.  And it was not that expensive.  It's lovely.

I've done medium format (still have a couple of Mamiya TLRs and Bronica ETRS) but never tried large format. The nearest I got to that was making a pinhole camera which took an 8x10 sheet of paper, then making a contact print from the paper negative. What make was your camera?

[DetroitBlues]

Between an abundance in the used market and many import options that get you 85% or closer to the tones you want, the USA made archtop is continuing to fade away.  

Honestly, I'd probably buy a Reverend Pete Anderson PA1 before I'd buy a Heritage archtop, even used.

Its not a style of guitar I primarily play but a novelty guitar.  The style it covers is fun, but not for the versatility I prefer from my guitars for the music style I primarily play.

When is the last time anyone saw an archtop played in any non-Jazz venue?  

I subscribe to the Grand Old Opry YouTube channel, I cannot remember any band playing an archtop.  Many, many acoustics... But not those massive, big jazz boxes.

[TalismanRich]

8 hours ago, DetroitBlues said:

 When is the last time anyone saw an archtop played in any non-Jazz venue? 

I did Elizabeth Reed at PSP on my H525 a few years back.   Does that count?

[bobmeyrick]

20 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

There are still quite a few folks making guitars.    They are small shops, and the guitars are expensive, but you can get them.  Monteleone,  Marchione,  Campallone,  Benedetto, Buscarino,  Comins, etc.   These are the higher end.  

On the more mass produced factories, you have Heritage,  Eastman, D'Angelico,  Peerless, Godin, Loar,  Ibanez,  Guild.

I did a quick search for archtop makers in the UK and was surprised by how many there were. A couple of the bigger names (relatively speaking!) were Case Guitars (who I mentioned in another thread) and  Fibonacci Guitars (Martin Taylor is one of their artists), and for £3k to £3.5k you can get a top quality handmade archtop.

[MartyGrass]

I have to admit that if you are going electric with your guitar, which seems to be catching on for, uh, over the last 70 years, you can have a lot of fun and spit out some good music with these upstart semi-hollow and solid body creations.

I have a 530 and a 555 that are no absolute joy to play.

They take skill to build this well put less than to produce a fine acoustic Golden Eagle.  Which are the more fun?  Well, I don't worry nearly as much about the laminate and solid builds.  They are easy to play and are durable.  Not bad to look at either.

 

[bolero]

I sometimes try to do Steve Howe impressions with my H575

they are not very convincing though. and it's not due to any shortcomings of the guitar

someday I would like to get an Eagle

[loudtubeamps]

On 12/7/2020 at 11:27 AM, TalismanRich said:

  

There are still quite a few folks making guitars.    They are small shops, and the guitars are expensive, but you can get them.  Monteleone,  Marchione,  Campallone,  Benedetto, Buscarino,  Comins, etc.   These are the higher end.  

 

 

Big thumbs up for the Buscarino line....stunning!  

https://buscarino.com/

[Heritage1970]

Great post! Thanks!

[ElNumero]

On 11/22/2020 at 11:25 AM, TalismanRich said:

I wonder  about the glory days at Gibby on Parsons Street, when they had hundreds of people working there, making Super 400s,  L5s,  J200s,  etc.   They weren't all experienced luthiers.    People still cherish those instruments.   Solid body guitars were the minority of what they were making, people were obviously making archtops and acoustic instruments.   Luckily, people can be taught and guided on how to do things they don't know.    We still have Jim,  Ren,  and Pete in there to guide people. 

We still have chefs.   As long as we can find young people who love music and woodworking,  I think we'll have people making guitars.

There is Google. That solves everything, you know. You can easily figure out how to do anything with Google. Or if that doesn't work, there is always the book available on Amazon, "Archtop Guitar Building for Dummies"

[ElNumero]

On 12/7/2020 at 10:15 PM, TalismanRich said:

I did Elizabeth Reed at PSP on my H525 a few years back.   Does that count?

I do remember that "attempt" !!!!!