Heritage Sweet 16 -- replacement #3 pickup?

[pking]

I bought a 2001 Heritage Sweet 16 a year ago, which I really love, but lately the sound has been sounding "scooped" -- no midrange, boomy bass, flat treble -- so I recorded a simple scale directly injected into the computer; to my amazement, apparently to each note struck there is an initial tone followed a millisecond or two later by another tone, as though it were put through an echoplex on impossibly short delay; the end result is a kind of "percussive" tone (the same sort of thing you used to get when singing without a pop filter).  That and the scooped sound make me think that the problem is the pickup which, as far as I know, is a standard Heritage #3 pickup.

Question #1:  Does that sound like a reasonable diagnosis of the problem?  If not, what else could it be?

Question #2:  Where in the world do I find a replacement for the pickup?  I'm in Toronto (Ontario) and buying parts from the USA is not always easy; I don't know any luthiers here who specialize in Heritage.

 

Any advice or suggestions would be welcome.  Thanks!

[cobo]

I’ve never owned or played that guitar, so I can’t comment on the sound issue. I will say though that when I plug an instrument directly into an interface, it often doesn’t sound very good. And the millisecond delay issue sounds like it could be potentially be a sampling/latency issue with your interface, and nothing to do with your guitar. Or perhaps the pickup mounting is loose or not well-damped to the guitar body? Do other guitars you plug in to the same interface do the same thing?

Regarding a replacement pickup,  I suggest to call the factory in Kalamazoo: (269) 385-5721.

[pking]

Thanks.  No, other guitars don't have the same millisecond delay issue -- I also tried a Gibbons ES-335 and a Telecaster, neither of which had the delay.  And they both did sound okay -- not great, but okay -- with direct injection.  That's why I suspect the pickup.  I'll call the factory of Monday, though, as noted, buying gear from the USA can be complicated.

[cobo]

And the pickup mount is not loose at all?  I was thinking that the delay could a mechanical / pickup mounting issue. 

[TalismanRich]

I would try stuffing a rag behind the bridge and doing the test again.   Unless the pickup has loose parts inside, I don't see how it could have a millisecond delay, but having the trapeze tailpiece can introduce "ringing" of the strings behind the bridge.   I find it to be a good part of the sound,  like a 12 string effect.   A normal electric won't have that effect since the distance between tailpiece and bridge is so short.   When you have 2-3 inches,  you can get a nice sympathetic vibration.

I don't know for sure,  but if I had to guess, I would think the pickup is probably already wax potted, which should damp any vibration or resonances.

You might send Heritage an email and have them ask Ren if he knows if the #3 is wax potted or not.   He would probably know, since he's a pickup guy.

[pking]

Thanks for the suggestions!  The pickup is solidly mounted.   I'll try ragging up the bridge to see if that makes a difference.  I also just recorded the Sweet 16 by acoustic microphone, to take the pickup out of the puzzle altogether -- I'll post results once I have time to analyze them.   I'll ask about the innards of the pickup when I call the Heritage plant on Monday -- if nothing else I guess I'll have an alarmingly technical discussion about pickups!

This guitar didn't used to sound like this; it had the loveliest mellow tone ever.  Now, not.

[Gitfiddler]

Here's a photo of a Heritage floater pickup from my '93 Golden Eagle.  It would connect to your Sweet 16 in the same manner.

I'm not certain if its a #3, but from what I've heard, they all looked similar inside and outside.

If you are considering a replacement, I'd suggest a handwound Kent Armstrong 12 pole paf floater.  They are available at www.archtop.com.

https://www.archtop.com/ac_access.html

 

Exterior:

[rwinking]

I was having a conversation on here with MartyGrass about that #3 and he turned me onto this as a replacement. I don't know how hard it may be to get Lollar's in Canada but I am going to pick one up for my L-5 which has a Gibbons Johnny Smith that I have never been fond of. This Lollor seems like the direction I want to go and I thought it may be easier to get than a #3.

Give a listen to the files but ignore the dirty one. It really sucks showing me to not add distortion to a jazz pickup!

 

https://www.lollarguitars.com/lollar-humbucker-pickups/johnny-smith-style-humbucker

[pking]

Thanks!  It seems like it's easier to step the pickup up a level rather than try to find a #3 itself to swap in.  One of the guitars tested in this archtop comparison video is a Sweet 16 with the handwound Kent Armstrong, which sounds very good indeed: 

I've been reading good things about the Lollar pickups as well.  Guess it's time to do some research into high-end side-mount floating pickups (a narrow world if there ever was one).

[MartyGrass]

I don't know what you mean about stepping up from the #3.  The video shows the GE I sold Makis about a decade ago.  He had no complaints.  It's intentionally a low output pickup made by Ken Rambow exactly how the Heritage owners wanted it.  The Floating #3 was not intended to sound like a PAF or hi fi Johnny Smith.

Some want a hotter pickup.  Kent's are a good choice, either in single or double coil.

[MartyGrass]

Here are two videos made by a friend of mine using the Floating #3.  One is with an 18" Heritage Johnny Smith and the other with a 17".  This pickup creates a more than passable sound.  I can't find a single thing wrong with the tones.

I've included shots of the #3 next to a Gibbons 57 to compare dimensions.  You can appreciate the technical challenges of putting a good pickup together with limited space.

The #3 is not potted, at least mine aren't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIejKgq-i0M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3t4avtjFWc

I used to think that #3 were second class pickups.  I've tried many in the last decade and have changed my mind.  I had a BJB, some Kent Armstrongs, a Benedetto, a Gibbons Bill Lawrence, and some from the guy who now builds Heritage floaters.  They all are a bit different, that's all.

 

[MartyGrass]

Here is a source for floating pickups.  (18) Kalamazoo Guitar Company | Facebook

Rob Doolittle builds the current Heritage floaters.  These are a bit hotter than the #3s and mounted differently to the pickguards.  Rob is a genius and very customer oriented at a reasonable price.

On his FB page you'll see my Heritage Johnny Smith with a single coil he built for it.  It's a masterpiece.

[big bob]

I replaced the heritage floater on my sweet 16 with a lollar floating gold foil. Sounds fantastic but it was expensive. 

[MartyGrass]

Here's another alternative.  This is a single coil with unique electronics.  It produces little hum for a single coil.  Also not cheap but is legendary for it's crisp articulate tone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2jl8KfKioA.

 

https://shop.guildguitars.com/product/guild-dearmond-rhythm-chief-1100-pickup-gold/?v=7516fd43adaa

 

 

[MartyGrass]

5 hours ago, big bob said:

I replaced the heritage floater on my sweet 16 with a lollar floating gold foil. Sounds fantastic but it was expensive. 

That's sounds like a great idea.  I didn't know he made that in a floater, but I don't see why not.  Genius.

[pking]

Marty, thanks for the advice and the videos -- Joe playing "Autumn Nocturne" and "Shadow of Your Smile" certainly had a lovely tone, and if that's what a #3 can do, then I'm all in for it!  Mine must just be ... off ... somehow.  The single coil is surprisingly impressive too.  Well, I'll call Heritage tomorrow and see what I can find out.

Big Bob: I just checked the Lollar website, and they do list a gold foil floating pickup for about $200 (USD), which is around the same price as the Kent Armstrong handmades.  Is that the pickup you used?  (I'm slightly confused because there were also ads for a used 2016 gold-foil lollar pu for $480!)

Definitely time for me to learn more about high-end pickups.  The #3, if I can get one, would presumably have the enormous advantage of being a straight swap into the Sweet 16.

Thanks everyone!

[rwinking]

Wow! That guy playing Misty had that Johnny Smith tone and all of those little nuances of his like the arpeggiated chords. Lovely!

[Gitfiddler]

I just noticed that the underside of Heritage floater pickups look a lot like old Gib-son T-Tops!  Hmmmm.

[TalismanRich]

Did anyone notice the amp in the SC400/DeArmond video?   Its an early Heritage Kenny Burrell amp,  you can see the H on the name plate.  

Maybe THAT'S why it sounds so good!

[big bob]

This one 

https://www.lollarguitars.com/lollar-gold-foil-pickups/gold-foil-floating-mount

[pking]

I looked it up.  The Lollar looks lovely.  If the replacement #3 pickup doesn't do the job, I might spring for that.