225 pickups

[MartyGrass]

I don't know much about these pickups.  I've read some tone descriptions and listened to some playing.  But I wonder how different these pickups could be fundamentally.

We know the stories about Seth Lover taking years to get the PAF right.  We understand the elimination of microphonics that followed by potting.  There were many making changes over a 70 year period to offer something new and perhaps better.  Throbak lists their replication of the original PAF for over $500 per set, taking us right back to the beginning.  Brilliant builders emerged all over the world with their pickups.

So Heritage comes out with their 225s.  I commend them for doing that and having the whole guitar made at the historic site.  Their Custom Cores are stellar.

All that said, I have a very difficult time expecting to hear a unique sound based solely on the pickups.  No question that I can with HRWs.  But what could they possibly have done in building a pickup that no one else has done?  So what is the mystique of the 225s based on?

I look forward to someday having one of the new guitars with the pickups in it.  I don't know whether it makes sense to pay a premium price over the competition for just a set of pickups.

Comments?

 

 

[pressure]

I have not heard the new 225 pickups but when Heritage made the SuperLight Milienum for me in 2019, they fitted it with a new pickup made by Heritage. It sounds Fab.

[rockabilly69]

1 hour ago, MartyGrass said:

I don't know much about these pickups.  I've read some tone descriptions and listened to some playing.  But I wonder how different these pickups could be fundamentally.

We know the stories about Seth Lover taking years to get the PAF right.  We understand the elimination of microphonics that followed by potting.  There were many making changes over a 70 year period to offer something new and perhaps better.  Throbak lists their replication of the original PAF for over $500 per set, taking us right back to the beginning.  Brilliant builders emerged all over the world with their pickups.

So Heritage comes out with their 225s.  I commend them for doing that and having the whole guitar made at the historic site.  Their Custom Cores are stellar.

All that said, I have a very difficult time expecting to hear a unique sound based solely on the pickups.  No question that I can with HRWs.  But what could they possibly have done in building a pickup that no one else has done?  So what is the mystique of the 225s based on?

I look forward to someday having one of the new guitars with the pickups in it.  I don't know whether it makes sense to pay a premium price over the competition for just a set of pickups.

Comments?

 

 

To me, one of the things that needed upgrading the most on Heritage guitars is the pickups. I'm not a fan of anything they've ever used. And for years, I thought the same of G i b s o n pickups, but a few years back when G i b s o n introduced the custom buckers I instantly liked them, for two reasons, the used Alnico 3 magnets which I've had good luck with in the past, and they had what a consider the perfect DC resistance. I also like that they weren't potted. I think allows the pickup to sense/hear more than just the string. The 225s seem to be built the same way, and that makes sense since they brought over Edwin Wilson who was instrumental in the custombucker development. 

[PunkKitty]

I honestly wish they would use different pickups on their regular production H-150. The 59's are okay, but they are nothing special for an instrument that retails for $2500+. At the very least, they should have Seth's in them. 

[ej150]

I love the 225's. I'm a huge fan of the Seth Lovers, and I like the 225s better. 

Same tonal character as Seth's, but they just have a bit more open and clearer sound. 

Try em. You'll like em.

[yoslate]

OK...I'll stick my neck out.  I wish I had the time to do sound clips and a dissertation, but I simply can't just now.  Since I got my Custom Core, I haven't had much chance to play it through an amp.  Spanked it briefly a few times through my Super Champ, and it sounded very good.  Circumstances at home just aren't favorable.  There's no band, no rehearsals, and my two-year studio project's music is finished.  What's a poor boy to do? 

But...yesterday, I had the chance to take the CC to my good friend and amp guy's shop for a test drive of one of his builds.  He'd taken a Challenger PA amp and converted it to a G i b s o n GA-40 circuit, but at 30-ish watts, rather than the original GA-40's 15 or so.  Played through a custom built open-back cab with two Jensens (don't know which ones), one 10", and one 12".  

Just like everyone on this forum, I've been through umpteen different sets of humbuckers, most swell, in their own ways.  And I agree with Daniel, one of the best sets I've ever heard was the Custom Buckers, which came in my G. Custom Shop Goldtop.  But I've also heard lovely tones from Throbaks, Wolfetones, and Tom Short.  Many of you know I have a pair of '61 PAF's out of a Barney Kessel (currently in my 20th Anniversary 150).  It's fabulous!  Thing is, with those, for some reason, G i b s o n set them up out of phase in the middle position.  Right there's that great Peter Green/B.B. King tone, but not the great '59 middle position honk I associate with vintage Pauls. 

That definitive PAF tone for me (and yes, completely subjective) is the tone in the Erlewine/Bloomfield Burst.  In particular there's a brilliant, beautiful "glassy" tone (some high-mid/high voodoo) I've heard in a very few Bursts, but most prominently in Bloomfield's (the solo at 6:41 in Blues On The Westside, from Mike Bloomfield Live At Bill Graham's Filmore West).  I've been chasing that tone for decades.  Never got very close...until yesterday.  Yeah, we can debate amp, tubes, speakers, wood, caps, resistance, et.al. until the cows come home.  Simple fact of the matter is I've never come close to my grail Burst tone until plugging the CC into the GA-40 clone, and wound it up. 

The 225's meter at 7.63 for the neck and 7.65 for the bridge.  The PAF's are 7.60 for the neck, 7.81 at the bridge.  Individually, the neck 225 and the PAF, and the bridge 225 and the PAF are really close.  The difference to my ears is that individually, both of the PAF's have just a touch of burnished high-end gloss, focus, or sweetness (or whatever the accurate subjective adjective might be) that the 225's don't.  The bottom line here is the simple fact that I cannot imagine a good reason for switching out anything (including the orange drop caps) on the Custom Core!  And to answer Marty's question: "So what is the mystique of the 225s based on? " Faerie dust...that's all I've got.

 

[yoslate]

"That definitive PAF tone for me (and yes, completely subjective) is the tone in the Erlewine/Bloomfield Burst.  In particular there's a brilliant, beautiful "glassy" tone (some high-mid/high voodoo) I've heard in a very few Bursts, but most prominently in Bloomfield's (the solo at 6:41 in Blues On The Westside, from Mike Bloomfield Live At Bill Graham's Filmore West).  I've been chasing that tone for decades.  Never got very close...until yesterday." 

And I should clarify that the tone I'm referencing here, and the tone in Bloomers' clip is in the middle position, both pickups.  Not at all certain in what proportion.  I've long suspected that Michael often left his selector switch in the middle and adjusted his tone by changing the volume on each pickup: More bite, roll the neck off; more sweetness, roll the bridge off.  Just a theory.  But in the clip, I really think Michael's wide open in the middle.  It's just glorious...and this solo makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.  Has for fifty years.

[rockabilly69]

On 7/11/2021 at 4:00 PM, yoslate said:

"That definitive PAF tone for me (and yes, completely subjective) is the tone in the Erlewine/Bloomfield Burst.  In particular there's a brilliant, beautiful "glassy" tone (some high-mid/high voodoo) I've heard in a very few Bursts, but most prominently in Bloomfield's (the solo at 6:41 in Blues On The Westside, from Mike Bloomfield Live At Bill Graham's Filmore West).  I've been chasing that tone for decades.  Never got very close...until yesterday." 

And I should clarify that the tone I'm referencing here, and the tone in Bloomers' clip is in the middle position, both pickups.  Not at all certain in what proportion.  I've long suspected that Michael often left his selector switch in the middle and adjusted his tone by changing the volume on each pickup: More bite, roll the neck off; more sweetness, roll the bridge off.  Just a theory.  But in the clip, I really think Michael's wide open in the middle.  It's just glorious...and this solo makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.  Has for fifty years.

Oh yeah that is a great tone! I will take that chirp over the out of phase middle position any day of the week, and that is a screamer of a solo with him riding the universes's  energy tap like a bronco bustin' cowpoker.

[ElNumero]

Glad to hear you are not going to perform surgery on the new axe. Enjoy it the way it was made from the factory. 

[Genericmusic]

I've been following the discussion but not being a solid body man I have refrained from from joining the the fray until now. My $.02 is that all Heritages should be using Thro Baks in all their builds. To my ears and likes they are the best for what I am attempting to achieve sound wise. That being said tone chasing is an endless pursuit and always in the mind and ears of the pursuer.  ?  Play on...

[davesultra]

1 hour ago, Genericmusic said:

I've been following the discussion but not being a solid body man I have refrained from from joining the the fray until now. My $.02 is that all Heritages should be using Thro Baks in all their builds. To my ears and likes they are the best for what I am attempting to achieve sound wise. That being said tone chasing is an endless pursuit and always in the mind and ears of the pursuer.  ?  Play on...

I like that idea regarding using ThroBaks. Only problem with that is it would require a significant up charge. That would likely make them more expensive than their comparable Gibbons counterparts.

[Gitfiddler]

1 hour ago, davesultra said:

I like that idea regarding using ThroBaks. Only problem with that is it would require a significant up charge. That would likely make them more expensive than their comparable Gibbons counterparts.

+1

[bobmeyrick]

This may be of interest. The Captain and Danish Pete from Andertons compare the H150 Custom Core with a PRS Limited Edition McCarty Singlecut 594 and a Gibbons Custom Shop 1959 Les Paul Standard Reissue...

 

[DetroitBlues]

On 7/11/2021 at 10:10 AM, MartyGrass said:

I don't know much about these pickups.  I've read some tone descriptions and listened to some playing.  But I wonder how different these pickups could be fundamentally.

We know the stories about Seth Lover taking years to get the PAF right.  We understand the elimination of microphonics that followed by potting.  There were many making changes over a 70 year period to offer something new and perhaps better.  Throbak lists their replication of the original PAF for over $500 per set, taking us right back to the beginning.  Brilliant builders emerged all over the world with their pickups.

So Heritage comes out with their 225s.  I commend them for doing that and having the whole guitar made at the historic site.  Their Custom Cores are stellar.

All that said, I have a very difficult time expecting to hear a unique sound based solely on the pickups.  No question that I can with HRWs.  But what could they possibly have done in building a pickup that no one else has done?  So what is the mystique of the 225s based on?

I look forward to someday having one of the new guitars with the pickups in it.  I don't know whether it makes sense to pay a premium price over the competition for just a set of pickups.

Comments?

 

 

If you think about it that way, why not put a set of cheap import pickups from Epiphone and drop in a guitar.

I think the subtle differences in materials and methods make the difference.  Perhaps there is too much emphasis on handmade or boutique builds vs mass production.  Who knows.

[Kuz]

1 hour ago, bobmeyrick said:

This may be of interest. The Captain and Danish Pete from Andertons compare the H150 Custom Core with a PRS Limited Edition McCarty Singlecut 594 and a Gibbons Custom Shop 1959 Les Paul Standard Reissue...

 

Well, unfortunately (to my ears), this Core 150 didn’t hold up very well to the R9.  The R9 rang out more acoustically and was more open & musical through the amp.  The Core 150 (to me) sounded compressed and congested…. It had the proverbial blanket over top it.

YMMV

[davesultra]

3 hours ago, Kuz said:

Well, unfortunately (to my ears), this Core 150 didn’t hold up very well to the R9.  The R9 rang out more acoustically and was more open & musical through the amp.  The Core 150 (to me) sounded compressed and congested…. It had the proverbial blanket over top it.

YMMV

I have to agree. The Core wasn’t bad, it just wasn’t as good as the Gibbons. The PRS was my least favorite of the bunch.

[TalismanRich]

For me, the differences seemed to be in the pickups.   The Heritage was darker, fatter, and lower in output.   The LP broke up more on with the gain telling me it had more output,  and started to get edgy to me.   The PRS was way too bright and seemed to be hotter than either of the other two.  

I don't know that the nut makes the big difference that they were noting, unless you're playing lots of open cowboy chords.   For me,  once you hit the frets,  the nut pretty much drops out of the equation.  

 

[Gitfiddler]

I bet if they raised the pickups a bit on the Heritage it would have sounded better.  Mind you, I've never heard 225 p'ups, but there are subtle adjustments that make a huge difference on guitars.  That's why I never buy anything musical, based solely on YouTube videos.  Even with Throbak pickups, adjusting the pickup height makes them sound clearer or muddy.

[MartyGrass]

There's a ton of variables in the tone chain, isn't there?

I was reading reviews of Stringjoy Nickles.  The same set got really bad and really good reviews.

Maybe we're chasing something that doesn't exist or isn't stable.  Maybe it exists only in our mind or attitude.

I've got this old Heritage 150 that shouldn't be special and probably isn't, but sometimes it feels and sounds just right.  Idk. 

[Spectrum13]

6 minutes ago, MartyGrass said:

 

 

Maybe we're chasing something that doesn't exist or isn't stable.  Maybe it exists only in our mind or attitude.

 

This....  Anyone read

 

This Is Your Brain on Music by Daniel J. Levitin ...

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/298964/this-is-your-brain-on-music-by-daniel-j-levitin/

A Los Angeles Times Book Award finalist, This is Your Brain on Music will attract readers of Oliver Sacks and David Byrne, as it is an unprecedented, eye-opening investigation into an obsession at the heart of human nature. Daniel J. Levitin, PhD, is a neuroscientist, cognitive psychologist, and bestselling author.

 

 

[yoslate]

2 hours ago, MartyGrass said:

There's a ton of variables in the tone chain, isn't there?

I was reading reviews of Stringjoy Nickles.  The same set got really bad and really good reviews.

Maybe we're chasing something that doesn't exist or isn't stable.  Maybe it exists only in our mind or attitude.

I've got this old Heritage 150 that shouldn't be special and probably isn't, but sometimes it feels and sounds just right.  Idk. 

I've assisted on about 150 live recordings and played on and helped mix eight studio albums.  If I've learned anything, it's that no two people necessarily hear the same thing, the same way.  If you want to look at waveforms, that's something else again. I think they call that objectivity.  And I love Stringjoy wires!

[MartyGrass]

7 hours ago, yoslate said:

If I've learned anything, it's that no two people necessarily hear the same thing, the same way.  If you want to look at waveforms, that's something else again. I think they call that objectivity.

I have a friend who over the years consistently believes that cherry finished Lucilles are brighter and more "open" than the black ones, which are "warmer".  He's had maybe three or four sets of them, including a more recent pair he got from me.  The guitars are built the same way, possibly on the same day.  The difference in tone has to do with the density of the black lacquer compared with the cherry stain.  I've discussed psychoacoustics with him.  It doesn't matter.  He hears what he hears and knows what he knows.  Fair enough.

For those who want to dive deeper, here are two videos by the chief scientist at Dolby.  One is a quick video, the other is about 20 minutes.  You will not waste your time.

 

 

[MartyGrass]

Longer one.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVI1CAu1vFg

[TalismanRich]

9 hours ago, yoslate said:

I've assisted on about 150 live recordings and played on and helped mix eight studio albums.  If I've learned anything, it's that no two people necessarily hear the same thing, the same way.  If you want to look at waveforms, that's something else again. I think they call that objectivity.  And I love Stringjoy wires!

Absolutely true!    I have seen that in the audiophile world for 30 years, and its the same when you look at playing or recording music.    We all have a sound we like, and tend to gravitate towards.   There's no absolute "truth" in what a guitar, amp, piano, microphone, or even a voice should sound like.   It's simply if you like it or not.  

Heck,  I've even heard that some people like the taste of broccoli!  ?

[yoslate]

2 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

Absolutely true!    I have seen that in the audiophile world for 30 years, and its the same when you look at playing or recording music.    We all have a sound we like, and tend to gravitate towards.   There's no absolute "truth" in what a guitar, amp, piano, microphone, or even a voice should sound like.   It's simply if you like it or not.  

Heck,  I've even heard that some people like the taste of broccoli!  ?

But...that having been said, there's always physics.  In the complicated alchemy of recording, mixing, and mastering (I've sat through mastering sessions. The science is mind-boggling) music, there are absolutes: appropriate mic choice for what you're capturing, optimal mic placement, phasing, frequency cancellation, clipping, standing waves, and on and on.  To be oblivious to the absolutes of physics in recording is to necessarily limit the quality of the project.  I prefer Broccolini....