The curse of HRW pickups

[tfb]

I have two H150s: a lovely, relatively light, yellow sunburst one that I think is just beautiful to look at, and an annoyingly heavy (especially as I get older, it makes my left hand numb), annoyingly purple one which I don't want to like.  But the purple one has HRWs and the yellow one has Schallers, and there is no competition, especially on the neck pickup: purple one every time.

Rationally, I should swap the pickups and sell the purple one, but I don't want to get rid of either, not least because the purple one was a gift from my wife.

So, assuming I don't have vast sums to spend, and assuming I really like the HRWs, what's the most HRW-like pickups I could get?  Slightly lowrr output (than the HRWs)would be a mild advantage, but I obviously can deal with that.

Thanks

[skydog52]

I see you are in the UK. Take a look at Bare Knuckle Mules. You might like those.

Good luck with your search!

Let's see those beauties. Pics?

[tfb]

17 minutes ago, skydog52 said:

Let's see those beauties. Pics?

There are some already (sorry, I'd post a link but I don't know if I can find it on an iPad: look for threads by me.)

PS thank you for the suggestion.  These people are pretty close to me (I am at least theoretically half Cornish), so I'll talk to them!

[skydog52]

Found them. Nice!

[Gianluca]

45 minutes ago, tfb said:

There are some already (sorry, I'd post a link but I don't know if I can find it on an iPad: look for threads by me.)

PS thank you for the suggestion.  These people are pretty close to me (I am at least theoretically half Cornish), so I'll talk to them!

I use Bareknuckle The Mule on my H150 Gold Top
you can have a listen to them here (my YT video)
I like them, they are A4, but I think at the Neck I should get something else lower output and a bit brighter

I think the solution could be underwound HBs, for example Robben Ford says something in this video about his PUs on his LP of those times

looks like the same LP he played at a clinic in Rome (La casa del Jazz, 2015) I attended

[bobmeyrick]

I've just measured the HRWs in my H535, and the neck is 7.3k while the bridge is 8k. I don't know what magnets were used (does anybody?), but I believe the Schallers, on which the HRWs were based, used Alnico 5 magnets. I also just checked a pair if Schallers (taken from an H150 a while ago) and they are neck - 7.7k, bridge - 8.3k.

While I have the multimeter out... Burstbucker 1 - 7.7k, Burstbucker 2 - 8.2k, Seth Lover neck - 7.3k, Seth Lover bridge - 8k (these are both Alnico 2).

According to the SD site, the 59s are neck- 7.6k, bridge 8.2k (similar to the Schallers). Looking at the Bare Knuckle site, the Riff Raff humbuckers are Alnico 5, neck - 7.4k, bridge - 8.2k. I'm sure if you contact BK they'll be able to advise you on the options. There are also a fair number of winders in the UK who will make a custom pickups - Radioshop, Creamery, Oil City, Catswhisker etc.

[bobmeyrick]

4 hours ago, skydog52 said:

Found them. Nice!

My 1998 VSB H150 is very much like the one on in the pic. I replaced the bridge and tailpiece with a Tone Pros Nashvile set up and the SD 59s with a set of Bare Knuckle Stormy Mondays. It's my go to guitar...

[PunkKitty]

FWIW, the magnets in HRW's have to be Alnico 5. Schaller glued them in place and used a custom sized magnet. It would likely be prohibitively expensive to get just a few sets of custom magnets cut. I'm not sure what Ren did to these pickups. He won't talk about it. I tried to get him to talk a few times. It's a secret he will take to the grave with him. 

[Gianluca]

I still have HRWs in the case, is there a video or a sample somewhere to possibly hear a difference?
edit: found something on YT (not much)

[tfb]

12 hours ago, bobmeyrick said:

a set of Bare Knuckle Stormy Mondays.

It looks as if the Stormy Mondays are slightly bassier than the Mules (I get confused about the timeline of PAFs & related but they seem to be based on something a year or so earlier).  My intuition is I'd like the treblier ones more (ie Mules) but I can see I will have to do research (or become rich and buy both, sadly not a realistic option).

Thanks for the pointers!

[houndhome]

Just to keep things in the U.K. here's my H150 Ultra with HRW's

[MartyGrass]

That is stunning. 

[yoslate]

On 7/31/2021 at 3:01 PM, tfb said:

So, assuming I don't have vast sums to spend, and assuming I really like the HRWs, what's the most HRW-like pickups I could get?

My overly simplistic answer:  Lollar Imperials.  A little more output than you're looking for, but, to my ears, they have the same Hi-Fi quality found in the HRW's. 

https://www.lollarguitars.com/lollar-humbucker-pickups/lollar-imperial-humbucker

[Gitfiddler]

57 minutes ago, yoslate said:

My overly simplistic answer:  Lollar Imperials.  A little more output than you're looking for, but, to my ears, they have the same Hi-Fi quality found in the HRW's. 

https://www.lollarguitars.com/lollar-humbucker-pickups/lollar-imperial-humbucker

Really?  I've never tried Lollar Imperials but have heard they are great p'ups. 

[High Flying Bird]

12 hours ago, yoslate said:

My overly simplistic answer:  Lollar Imperials.  A little more output than you're looking for, but, to my ears, they have the same Hi-Fi quality found in the HRW's. 

https://www.lollarguitars.com/lollar-humbucker-pickups/lollar-imperial-humbucker

My H-137 custom I got second hand has the Imperials.  Fantastic pick ups!  I would take them over the HRWs any day.  Who knew?  When you can't play for shit you at least need to get good tone. 

[MartyGrass]

On 7/31/2021 at 8:03 PM, PunkKitty said:

FWIW, the magnets in HRW's have to be Alnico 5. Schaller glued them in place and used a custom sized magnet. It would likely be prohibitively expensive to get just a few sets of custom magnets cut. I'm not sure what Ren did to these pickups. He won't talk about it. I tried to get him to talk a few times. It's a secret he will take to the grave with him. 

There are not that many things he could have done to those pickups that would be cost-effective for the time spent.  The magnets, screws and coils are not changed.  I had heard from the beginning that the pickups were cryo treated.  I have never heard any of the insiders at Heritage deny it.  Ren wouldn't be the only one to do this treatment with pickups.

[MartyGrass]

17 hours ago, yoslate said:

My overly simplistic answer:  Lollar Imperials.  A little more output than you're looking for, but, to my ears, they have the same Hi-Fi quality found in the HRW's. 

https://www.lollarguitars.com/lollar-humbucker-pickups/lollar-imperial-humbucker

I have a set of Imperials in a semi-hollow and Low Wind Imperials in a hollowbody.  They are great pickups.  I don't get the very hi-fi bridge sound for some reason.

[PunkKitty]

2 hours ago, MartyGrass said:

There are not that many things he could have done to those pickups that would be cost-effective for the time spent.  The magnets, screws and coils are not changed.  I had heard from the beginning that the pickups were cryo treated.  I have never heard any of the insiders at Heritage deny it.  Ren wouldn't be the only one to do this treatment with pickups.

That's what I heard also. I'll have to look into that. I have a couple sets of Schallers in my shop.

[PunkKitty]

Just did some quick research into liquid nitrogen. It's hard to get (as it should be). Companies won't give you pricing unless you establish an account with them first. You can buy the equipment, without the N2, on Amazon. For a more budget friendly experiment, you can buy cans of freeze spray for about $25. That will cool things to about -50C. I'd be willing to experiment with that on a cheap set of Alnico pickups just to see if there is any difference. Repeated applications might be needed after whatever is frozen warms up. I'm guessing that Ren just pulled the magnets out of the pickups and cryogenically treated them in some way. Effectively, that's supposed to age the magnet in some way. That would be the easiest thing to do. The glue on them could be softened with a heat gun. There is a risk of damaging the plastic parts with cryo treating, and it could effect the resistance of the copper.  So I'm not sure if he treated them or not. 

[tfb]

19 minutes ago, PunkKitty said:

It's hard to get (as it should be)

So, this is not my story, or at least I will claim it is not to protect those responsible.  Quite a long time ago, there was a company whose business was making liquid oxygen.  It's hard to make liquid oxygen without making liquid nitrogen too, and in those days there wasn't really much use for it, so the stuff used to be quite readily available to various young science graduates who worked in the company.

In this company was an office which had a door which didn't fit very well: there was a gap of perhaps half an inch under the bottom of the door.  Meetings were sometimes held in this office.

The gap under the door was quite large enough that if one happened to have a bucket full of liquid nitrogen to hand, one could slosh the bucket under the door, spreading liquid nitrogen all over the floor of the office.

The consequence of this was that the liquid nitrogen would suddenly have a very large free surface and would start evaporating furiously.  The energy for that would come, at least in part from the air in the room which would drop in temperature by tens of degrees (proper degrees, not Fahrenheit) over a few seconds.  All the moisture in the air would condense out and the room would fill with dense, freezing fog.

Outside the office would be heard the sound of giggling science graduates, running away before anyone found their way out.

I'm sure this has something to do with guitars.

[Gitfiddler]

4 hours ago, MartyGrass said:

There are not that many things he could have done to those pickups that would be cost-effective for the time spent.  The magnets, screws and coils are not changed.  I had heard from the beginning that the pickups were cryo treated.  I have never heard any of the insiders at Heritage deny it.  Ren wouldn't be the only one to do this treatment with pickups.

Cryo treated pickup magents, eh? 

Maybe we need to get Cryoman to investigate this long  standing mystery. 

[davesultra]

Just me speculating here but… I still believe that the only thing Ren changed were the magnets. He may have either changed them, or had them degaussed. The machinery used to do it is not “terribly” expensive. Our company has a small one that’s used to both magnetize and de-magnetize small parts. Perhaps Ren had a connection with someone who had that type of equipment? Who really knows for sure? Ren does.

[davesultra]

1 minute ago, davesultra said:

 

[PunkKitty]

I think I'm going to do an experiment. I'll order an inexpensive set of Alnico humbuckers to abuse. I want them to be approximate vintage specs. Epiphone Probuckers would probably be a good choice. I'll just make sure they have Alnico 5 magnets in them before I start. Then I'll order a can of the freeze spray from Amazon. I'll take before and after samples using the same setup and the same guitar. I'll freeze the pickups repeatedly if I have to just to see if there is a difference. I'll only use clean settings. I can't do this right now. I have too much on my plate. But maybe in a month or two. Then I'll post the results to see if we, as a group, can hear a difference. 

[ElNumero]

On 7/31/2021 at 8:03 PM, PunkKitty said:

FWIW, the magnets in HRW's have to be Alnico 5. Schaller glued them in place and used a custom sized magnet. It would likely be prohibitively expensive to get just a few sets of custom magnets cut. I'm not sure what Ren did to these pickups. He won't talk about it. I tried to get him to talk a few times. It's a secret he will take to the grave with him. 

It's the secret sauce of the HRW's!