Mass Produced vs Hand Wired - Is there a difference in volume?

[DetroitBlues]

I've been playing a Marshall DSL20C with a Celestion Neo Creamback.

Recently, I traded for Steiner's Lil Dawg Pug Reverb amp.  This is a Marshall 1974 with the tremolo/vibrato removed and replaced with an onboard tube driven spring reverb.

The Marshall is a China made, PCB board amp with lesser quality components.  It sounds good, but there is a definite difference between it and the Pug.

The Pug is hand-wired, using large transformers and high end components.  While the wattage is 18w vs the Marshall's 20w and both being 1x12 amps, the PUG is WAY Louder and musical.  The distortion is much more natural, even when a couple of overdrives or a distortion pedal in front (JHS Andy Timmons AT+ which is a Marshall in a box, Earth Quaker Plumes - modified tube screamer, and a GK Yorkshire - Timmy Clone).

I had a similar issue years ago when I had a Peavy Valveking 20w head and a Jet City 20w head.  The Jet city had massive transformers and was super loud, although less feature rich than the Peavey.  Peavey is PCB board while Jet City is printed circuit board surface mounted components.

So does the beefier transformers make the difference?  Hand-wired vs circuit board?

[kbp810]

51 minutes ago, DetroitBlues said:

I've been playing a Marshall DSL20C with a Celestion Neo Creamback.

Recently, I traded for Steiner's Lil Dawg Pug Reverb amp.  This is a Marshall 1974 with the tremolo/vibrato removed and replaced with an onboard tube driven spring reverb.

The Marshall is a China made, PCB board amp with lesser quality components.  It sounds good, but there is a definite difference between it and the Pug.

The Pug is hand-wired, using large transformers and high end components.  While the wattage is 18w vs the Marshall's 20w and both being 1x12 amps, the PUG is WAY Louder and musical.  The distortion is much more natural, even when a couple of overdrives or a distortion pedal in front (JHS Andy Timmons AT+ which is a Marshall in a box, Earth Quaker Plumes - modified tube screamer, and a GK Yorkshire - Timmy Clone).

I had a similar issue years ago when I had a Peavy Valveking 20w head and a Jet City 20w head.  The Jet city had massive transformers and was super loud, although less feature rich than the Peavey.  Peavey is PCB board while Jet City is printed circuit board surface mounted components.

So does the beefier transformers make the difference?  Hand-wired vs circuit board?

Quite a few different potential variables here - a mass produced amp might be designed around lower voltages with longevity in mind; especially taking into consideration the smaller/cheaper components likely used within. Also, the speaker used can make a big difference in volume (or at least perceived volume) too... some speakers may have heavy doping or designed to be less efficient (lower sensitivity; either intentionally to get a desired effect, or potentially due to cheaper construction).  

For beefier transformers; bigger transformer shouldn't directly correlate to volume, but rather more so tone potential (and some level of interactivity with the power tubes and distortion). A smaller or poorly designed transformer can crop off or fail to reproduce as wide of a range of frequencies... of course, we could be teetering into cork sniffing territory here... in some scenarios, size doesn't really matter and/or a smaller OT might be intentionally used to get a certain desired effect (so bigger doesn't always necessarily mean better). The construction/design of the transformer may have a more noticeable impact - a mass produced amp could use an output transformer with a winding ratio designed to not push the power tubes too hard (for longevity and/or less distortion), which could mean potentially lower volume (like using a 5k primary/8ohm secondary instead of a 3.4k primary/8ohm secondary). Again, lot's of variables here, just sharing some overly generalized feedback. 

Again though, lot's of potential variables though... sometimes it might just be some boutique goodness coaxing you into turning the volume up just a little higher. 

 

[212Mavguy]

Wow...KBP absofrigginLUTELY nailed it.  The transformer section is particularly wonderful.

[Steiner]

In the early days of amps, long before wave soldering came to the industry, components were hand assembled on a circuit board.  The amps were simple and sounded lovely!  As electrical engineers entered the fray, circuits became more complex and economics entered the mass produced market.  I get the sense that circuit boards entered the market right about the same time as cheaper components.  I've read but never aligned with the hand-wired V circuit board difference.  Case in point Soldano's SLO; a legendary sound that is circuit board based.  At the same time, KBP810b has created many tasty hand-wired masterpieces.  The difference, I believe, are the individual components.  The less cost, generally, means higher tolerances allowing the sound to escape.

I believe in big transformers for many reasons.  Empirically, every sweet amp I've played has big iron.  I've had bad amps with big iron so it's not a sure-fire test.

KBP810 nailed the speaker factor.  One might add the cab size too.

I've seen but never calculated amp wattage.  There is a formula that takes into account the power in the circuit.  I believe that is where the # of amps associated with a circuit originates.  You can get a flavor of how many amperes from the power tube type.  6V6 ~ 7W, EL-84 ~ 9W, 6L6/5881 ~ 25W etc.  There's only a 3db difference between a 50W and 100W amp.  Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the...

[TalismanRich]

P

7 hours ago, Steiner said:

In the early days of amps, long before wave soldering came to the industry, components were hand assembled on a circuit board.  The amps were simple and sounded lovely!

PishPosh!    We don't need not stinkin' circuit boards!

[zguitar71]

Speaker differences can make a large impact on volume. As far as point to point vs PCB, if the components are of equal quality and identical values with identical transformers, speaker and tubes then they should be very close in tone and volume. The mass produced amp will usually suffer from cutting quality for profit and as an end result the tone suffers. There is no reason a mass produced amp can’t sound amazing if that is the main focus. 

[mark555]

Mass production has made amps more affordable for many. But I hope one day to own a really nice hand wired amp.

[Kuz]

If your question is centered most on more dbs comparing the amps, I bet it is most definitely the difference in speakers (more specifically the difference in the efficacy of the speakers).

Get a cheap speaker cable (like the ones used in a Head-cabinet setup) with a quarter inch female to female adapter and just disable the internal speakers in your combo amps.  Now plug the speaker from one combo into the speaker in of the other combo amp .  Then reverse the process for the other combo amp.  Listen. 

You will hear a very close proximation of how the different speakers sound driven by the different amps.  CAUTION, don't forget to have a speaker (either internal or internal speaker) plugged into the amp before turning the amp on.  Major damage can result because an amp need a load (speaker) to run through.  I do this all the time if I am wondering how "this speaker" in this combo, will sound in "this different" amp.

[DetroitBlues]

I'm looking into to speaker and cab size to see if that makes a difference.  The Marshall is a cheap cabinet and rather small/compact.  The Lil Pug is a very large cabinet build by Mather.  Both are open back cabs, but I've heard the size can make a difference.

Interesting video on that subject:

 

[TalismanRich]

1 hour ago, DetroitBlues said:

I'm looking into to speaker and cab size to see if that makes a difference.  The Marshall is a cheap cabinet and rather small/compact.  The Lil Pug is a very large cabinet build by Mather.  Both are open back cabs, but I've heard the size can make a difference.

Interesting video on that subject:

The size and design of the cabinet will absolutely have a major effect on the tone of a speaker.    One advantage of a head/cab setup is that the cabinet can either be sealed or properly ported to optimize the speakers.   Look up Thiele Small parameters.   Speakers have very specific values, and a good designer will use that to design the system.   It's not just how big the cab is, or how thick the wood is.

[DetroitBlues]

1 hour ago, TalismanRich said:

The size and design of the cabinet will absolutely have a major effect on the tone of a speaker.    One advantage of a head/cab setup is that the cabinet can either be sealed or properly ported to optimize the speakers.   Look up Thiele Small parameters.   Speakers have very specific values, and a good designer will use that to design the system.   It's not just how big the cab is, or how thick the wood is.

I know I love the sound of a 4x12 cab.  My favorite live band setting was my small, 20Watt Peavey Valveking running into a Marshall 4x12 (house provided cabinet).  It was amazing.  

[rockabilly69]

Transformers and speakers are the soul of an amp. Two of my best friends are hardcore amp builders, and I've watched them swap trannies around in amps to get exactly what they are looking for. These guys never cheap out when it comes to transformers that they use. And I've done enough speaker swapping to now that speaker efficiency can dramatically change the volume of an amp.

As for the hand wired amps as opposed to circuit boards. I prefer handwired, for serviceability, but my favorite amp that I plug into daily is a Mesa Fillmore 50. When properly built with good components a PCB board can be great. Mesa is proof of that, although the only amp of mine that I ever blew a transformer in was my MESA DC2. Of all the the amps that I own, only two are circuit board.

PCP:

Mesa Fillmore 50 
Mesa DC-2 

Handwired:

VOX AC15HW1, Dirty Girl Reverb, Tophat Club Deluxe, Victoria Regal II, Clark Beaufort Premium, Ampeg J20, Winnie Thomas Princeton Reverb Clone, Hawthorn Electric Marshall JMP Clone, Paul Blandford Marshall 18 Watt Clone, 1964 Fender Deluxe Reverb, 1969 Fender Vibro Champ, 1950 Webster Chicago 166-1, 1961 Ampeg Mercury.

 

[tsp17]

On 2/9/2023 at 12:04 PM, rockabilly69 said:

Transformers and speakers are the soul of an amp. Two of my best friends are hardcore amp builders, and I've watched them swap trannies around in amps to get exactly what they are looking for. These guys never cheap out when it comes to transformers that they use. And I've done enough speaker swapping to now that speaker efficiency can dramatically change the volume of an amp.

As for the hand wired amps as opposed to circuit boards. I prefer handwired, for serviceability, but my favorite amp that I plug into daily is a Mesa Fillmore 50. When properly built with good components a PCB board can be great. Mesa is proof of that, although the only amp of mine that I ever blew a transformer in was my MESA DC2. Of all the the amps that I own, only two are circuit board.

PCP:

Mesa Fillmore 50 
Mesa DC-2 

Handwired:

VOX AC15HW1, Dirty Girl Reverb, Tophat Club Deluxe, Victoria Regal II, Clark Beaufort Premium, Ampeg J20, Winnie Thomas Princeton Reverb Clone, Hawthorn Electric Marshall JMP Clone, Paul Blandford Marshall 18 Watt Clone, 1964 Fender Deluxe Reverb, 1969 Fender Vibro Champ, 1950 Webster Chicago 166-1, 1961 Ampeg Mercury.

 

Yep- My Mesa 5:50 Express+ head compares favorably to any handwired amp I’ve ever owned/played.  I’m plugged into it daily. It is plugged into a 2x12 ported cabinet and i love the sound.   Loved most of the handwired amps I’ve owned too (currently just a Vintage Sound Jazz 20).  Most of them have come and gone though.  Down to three amps. 

[bolero]

DB you didn't say what speaker was in the Pug amp?

For kicks you could run each amp into the other's speaker, to compare. Then you should get a clearer idea of what each amp sounds like & the differences a speaker makes.

[Steiner]

2 hours ago, bolero said:

DB you didn't say what speaker was in the Pug amp?

For kicks you could run each amp into the other's speaker, to compare. Then you should get a clearer idea of what each amp sounds like & the differences a speaker makes.

I like what you're thinking.

[DetroitBlues]

18 hours ago, bolero said:

DB you didn't say what speaker was in the Pug amp?

For kicks you could run each amp into the other's speaker, to compare. Then you should get a clearer idea of what each amp sounds like & the differences a speaker makes.

I believe its a Weber Classic British C1230 8ohm.  G12H-30 Tone. 12″, 50oz ceramic magnet, 30 watt, 1-3/4″ voice coil. British Kurt-Mueller ribbed cone and dustcap. Similar to the G12H-30, it is aggressive, gritty, with lots of midrange punch.

[Scatterbrain]

Only owned hand wired, never a SS board, so I don't know! Lol

[bolero]

On 2/13/2023 at 8:55 AM, DetroitBlues said:

I believe its a Weber Classic British C1230 8ohm.  G12H-30 Tone. 12″, 50oz ceramic magnet, 30 watt, 1-3/4″ voice coil. British Kurt-Mueller ribbed cone and dustcap. Similar to the G12H-30, it is aggressive, gritty, with lots of midrange punch.

Do you know if it's a 55 Hz or 75 Hz cone?

Has a big effect on the sound. And have you tried running them thru the other's speaker yet? that will inform you much more than forum speculation

[greywolf66]

IMHO it's not that an amp is hand wired that makes a difference, it's down to if the components were also hand vetted for optimum tone. 

For my 2 hand wired amps , they did that with every component and run a full till 24 hr burn in ,  I have 2 other good production amps with the same tube layout  .. do they sound as good ?  NO .. but they were also WAY less $$   It's worth it , if you have it 

[DetroitBlues]

On 3/18/2023 at 4:51 PM, bolero said:

Do you know if it's a 55 Hz or 75 Hz cone?

Has a big effect on the sound. And have you tried running them thru the other's speaker yet? that will inform you much more than forum speculation

Forgot about this thread.... What is the difference there?  I believe both speakers are 75hz.

[kbp810]

2 hours ago, DetroitBlues said:

Forgot about this thread.... What is the difference there?  I believe both speakers are 75hz.

The resonant frequency of the speaker. 55hz is focused more on low to mid range frequencies and also often used for bass amps/cabs; 75hz is focused more on mid to high range frequencies and is more typically used for guitar amps/cabs. 

Though many guitar amp/cabs out there do use or at least mix in a 55hz speaker for a certain desired effect. Both can sound great with guitar, but the 75hz would perhaps be a little more apt to cut through a mix; and perhaps that could come with the perception of being a louder speaker. 

[TalismanRich]

16 hours ago, greywolf66 said:

IMHO it's not that an amp is hand wired that makes a difference, it's down to if the components were also hand vetted for optimum tone. 

For my 2 hand wired amps , they did that with every component and run a full till 24 hr burn in ,  I have 2 other good production amps with the same tube layout  .. do they sound as good ?  NO .. but they were also WAY less $$   It's worth it , if you have it 

I would guess that hand picking components would depend a lot on the builder.   Certainly in the old days, the Fender factory had boxes full of capacitors,  boxes of resistors,  boxes of transformers, boxes of tubes, and the person putting the amp together just grabbed the appropriate components, put them on the board and put the soldering iron to them.    After it was done, you might put a meter to it to make sure that it measured in the right range for that part.

Its doubtful that Fender's hand wired versions of the Deluxe made today are done any differently,  or VHT's D50 Dumble clone or Vox V212HW.   They are production amps.   They are more expensive because a person has to pick up parts, put them in a hole and solder them vs a machine picking up 50 parts and dipping it in the wave solder machine.   Plus the "mystique" of having a hand wired amp means the marketing guys can bump the price an extra 25% or more. 

The philosophy is different from the boutique amp market, which would be akin to having an engine blueprinted and dyno tested, as opposed to just built at the factory.  If you are building an amp,  selecting a special transformer,  trying different brands of tubes for each amp,  and testing the value of every capacitor and resistor before using it, then you are doing a LOT more than a normal factory.    You're getting paid for that time and effort (if you are selling the amps) and it darn well better sound better than that Classic 30 at Guitar Center that sells for $400.

 

[bolero]

On 7/11/2023 at 10:49 AM, kbp810 said:

The resonant frequency of the speaker. 55hz is focused more on low to mid range frequencies and also often used for bass amps/cabs; 75hz is focused more on mid to high range frequencies and is more typically used for guitar amps/cabs. 

Though many guitar amp/cabs out there do use or at least mix in a 55hz speaker for a certain desired effect. Both can sound great with guitar, but the 75hz would perhaps be a little more apt to cut through a mix; and perhaps that could come with the perception of being a louder speaker. 

Furthermore: I know some people are fond of mixing speakers in cabs, but I had a 4x12 with a mix of 2x55Hz and 2x75Hz speakers, and I couldn't bear to listen to it: it just sounded weird & disjointed, I was getting bizarre manipulations of sound. Same manufacturer too. And all in phase. I swapped to all 75Hz and it's one of my best cabs.

[bolero]

I think the first G12H30 speakers were 55Hz, designed for the Marshall bass cabs? But people started using them for gtr because they had better power handling, and probably tamed some of the high end present in the later 60s & especially 70s Marshall amps.

 

Not sure what the reissues are, you can probably get both cones

[bolero]

By the way: I hope I'm not coming across as a know-it-all, I just like talking about this stuff.

And even more: playing the stuff