Question about CC finishes

[ridethatbike]

Does anyone know how authentic the new nitro finishes are? What I'm getting at is if they will "check" or not? I would think so given the verbiage on their site:

"This finish has a vintage gloss that adds a subtle shine and smooth feel. It wears and ages throughout the guitar's lifetime" but it'd be silly for me to assume.

Has anyone's CC started to check?

[Kuz]

I know that the nitro finish that companies/luthiers us can widely vary in composition.   Some companies/luthiers claim to have nitro finish that is more resistant to weather checking and color fading than others.   Some companies/luthiers say they use a thinner nitro finish and it is less resistant to checking.   Other companies/luthiers embrace the fact their guitars' finish will check because it is the "authentic nitro finish". 

I have owned quite a few guitars from many different companies/luthiers.   Their nitro finishes all feel, and even look, a little different.   While Heritages' nitro finish will check some over time and in extreme situations,  my experience is that Heritages' nitro is more robust than others' nitro finishes.   I have only had very small defined checking on my Heritages around the hardware if it happens at all.   Many owners here have had their Heritages for 20-30yrs and not exhibited any checking.... maybe we just take better care of our Heritage guitars than our other guitars??!!!

As far as Custom Cores, mine is artisian aged so obviously it is checked.   I don't know if Heritage uses a different nitro for CC or for artisian aged models.   

[pressure]

I have 2 Heritage Johnny Smiths from 1990 and neither of them has cracked. I play them at home and leave them out on guitar stands all year long. My home is not humidity controlled. I figure if I'm comfortable they're comfortable.

[TalismanRich]

I've seen pics of older Heritage guitars that have checked.   Mine haven't, but I don't subject them to wild temperature swings.    My old Guild from 74 only has a few cracks in the nitro, and it was actually in water for a short time.   My 157 was water damaged and the nitro did check quite a bit.   I had the guitar refinished and it's been fine ever since.

What type of "authenticity" are you looking for?   Lacquers come in various levels of gloss, with and without other materials.    Lacquers aren't necessarily 100% pure NC.   Various additives are used to make the finish more durable.   The actual manufacturing of NC resin can change the properties, making it more or less brittle.  Different grades of NC can have various levels of gloss.   How much you buff the finish will also affect the gloss level.   

Unless you actually know the manufacturer's name and what grade nitro Gibson or Fender was using 60 years ago,  it's unlikely that you'll find anyone using "authentic" nitro.   I'm guessing that the original company isn't even in business.  There are only a few companies in the US and Europe making NC.   Nitrocellulose is a material that is very tricky to manufacture safely, and most companies that make it have been bought and sold, and factories moved (I was in the coatings business for 40 years and suppliers were changing all the time as resin companies changed hands.)   Much of it comes from Asia these days.

So, what is "authentic"?

 

[yoslate]

2 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

I've seen pics of older Heritage guitars that have checked.   Mine haven't, but I don't subject them to wild temperature swings.    My old Guild from 74 only has a few cracks in the nitro, and it was actually in water for a short time.   My 157 was water damaged and the nitro did check quite a bit.   I had the guitar refinished and it's been fine ever since.

What type of "authenticity" are you looking for?   Lacquers come in various levels of gloss, with and without other materials.    Lacquers aren't necessarily 100% pure NC.   Various additives are used to make the finish more durable.   The actual manufacturing of NC resin can change the properties, making it more or less brittle.  Different grades of NC can have various levels of gloss.   How much you buff the finish will also affect the gloss level.   

Unless you actually know the manufacturer's name and what grade nitro Gibson or Fender was using 60 years ago,  it's unlikely that you'll find anyone using "authentic" nitro.   I'm guessing that the original company isn't even in business.  There are only a few companies in the US and Europe making NC.   Nitrocellulose is a material that is very tricky to manufacture safely, and most companies that make it have been bought and sold, and factories moved (I was in the coatings business for 40 years and suppliers were changing all the time as resin companies changed hands.)   Much of it comes from Asia these days.

So, what is "authentic"?

 

Really insightful post, Rich!  And best in the new year to you and yours!

[Gitfiddler]

@TalismanRichExcellent and insightful post, Rich.

But I'd like to know who makes the best smelling nitrocellulose.  A new Heritage has a mild sweetness, but I love the vanilla scented NC that Gibson used at one time.

[yoslate]

17 minutes ago, Gitfiddler said:

@TalismanRichExcellent and insightful post, Rich.

But I'd like to know who makes the best smelling nitrocellulose.  A new Heritage has a mild sweetness, but I love the vanilla scented NC that Gibson used at one time.

You okay, Tim...?

[bolero]

Heritage nitro finishes react with rubber gtr stands & other plastic/nylon more easily than Gibson, in my experience. So it was probably a more pure nitro mix? I think Gibson uses more plasticizers or something to make it more durable.

At least before Heritage redid the whole finishing dept, with the new setup. Can't attest to any newer gtrs.

[skydog52]

6 hours ago, Gitfiddler said:

@TalismanRichExcellent and insightful post, Rich.

But I'd like to know who makes the best smelling nitrocellulose.  A new Heritage has a mild sweetness, but I love the vanilla scented NC that Gibson used at one time.

 

[Spectrum13]

9 hours ago, Gitfiddler said:

@TalismanRichExcellent and insightful post, Rich.

But I'd like to know who makes the best smelling nitrocellulose.  

Rickenbacker!    

[ridethatbike]

16 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

I've seen pics of older Heritage guitars that have checked.   Mine haven't, but I don't subject them to wild temperature swings.    My old Guild from 74 only has a few cracks in the nitro, and it was actually in water for a short time.   My 157 was water damaged and the nitro did check quite a bit.   I had the guitar refinished and it's been fine ever since.

What type of "authenticity" are you looking for?   Lacquers come in various levels of gloss, with and without other materials.    Lacquers aren't necessarily 100% pure NC.   Various additives are used to make the finish more durable.   The actual manufacturing of NC resin can change the properties, making it more or less brittle.  Different grades of NC can have various levels of gloss.   How much you buff the finish will also affect the gloss level.   

Unless you actually know the manufacturer's name and what grade nitro Gibson or Fender was using 60 years ago,  it's unlikely that you'll find anyone using "authentic" nitro.   I'm guessing that the original company isn't even in business.  There are only a few companies in the US and Europe making NC.   Nitrocellulose is a material that is very tricky to manufacture safely, and most companies that make it have been bought and sold, and factories moved (I was in the coatings business for 40 years and suppliers were changing all the time as resin companies changed hands.)   Much of it comes from Asia these days.

So, what is "authentic"?

 

Fair questions...

I suppose what I'd personally like is a finish that'll check with a little persuasion. I've had nitro guitars that wouldn't check for anything (at least what I was comfortable doing) and others like my old Vaschenko that would crackle if I looked at it funny or played jazz chords on it.

From what I know, part of the variance of these both "nitro" finishes is the amount of plasticizers in them. I like the aged look, but not sure how I feel about the Artisan aging I've seen on the internet. I need to get one in hand before I'd write them off. Some of the AA tops I've seen look like they were razor bladed then used as a garden tool for a week. Not really what I would expect the wear on a vintage guitar to look like. I'd expect the dirt/gunk to be where a player would have their hands, which isn't consistent across the top.

That's kind of where I'm coming from, right or wrong. Here's a pic of my old Vaschenko that I aged. I was pretty happy with it...

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-MbgDpCR/0/fb71a2e6/X4/i-MbgDpCR-X4.jpg

[Gitfiddler]

12 hours ago, yoslate said:

You okay, Tim...?

I have been asked that question many times over the years.  

Not sure if it is urban legend or fact, but several guitar forums have inquired about Gibson's 'new guitar smell'.  The consensus is that Gibson sprays a pleasant-smelling scent in the new guitar cases (not the guitars).  The guitars pick up the aroma while in the case.

 

[yoslate]

18 minutes ago, Gitfiddler said:

I have been asked that question many times over the years.  

Not sure if it is urban legend or fact, but several guitar forums have inquired about Gibson's 'new guitar smell'.  The consensus is that Gibson sprays a pleasant-smelling scent in the new guitar cases (not the guitars).  The guitars pick up the aroma while in the case.

 

All kidding aside (well, most of it, anyway)...that makes a kind of sense.  I've noticed (and I've had one for forty-eight years) Gibson cases from the seventies can take on a kind of (your adjective here) odor over time.  It's not appealing.  I'd always chalked it up to the glue used to secure the liner to the inside of the case.

[davesultra]

2 hours ago, yoslate said:

All kidding aside (well, most of it, anyway)...that makes a kind of sense.  I've noticed (and I've had one for forty-eight years) Gibson cases from the seventies can take on a kind of (your adjective here) odor over time.  It's not appealing.  I'd always chalked it up to the glue used to secure the liner to the inside of the case.

I’ve found that PRS cases from the 90s’ have the same issue! 

[hinesarchtop]

On 1/6/2023 at 8:46 PM, Gitfiddler said:

@TalismanRichExcellent and insightful post, Rich.

But I'd like to know who makes the best smelling nitrocellulose.  A new Heritage has a mild sweetness, but I love the vanilla scented NC that Gibson used at one time.

Here you go Tim. 

[TalismanRich]

On 1/6/2023 at 11:46 PM, Gitfiddler said:

@TalismanRichExcellent and insightful post, Rich.

But I'd like to know who makes the best smelling nitrocellulose.  A new Heritage has a mild sweetness, but I love the vanilla scented NC that Gibson used at one time.

Its hard to say what "good smelling" means here.    Some amyl solvents can have a fruity or sweet smell.   Certain esters that are used for solvents can give a bit of a sweet odor.   These can be very slow in evaporating, so you might smell them for quite a while.   Eventually they should go away, though.  The same holds true for some of the nasty smelling compounds.

By itself NC has very little odor.   It's all from the additives.

I was reading some things about Gibson's lacquer spraying and it appears that they are using a robot to spray the finish (don't know if custom shop does), and the it's electrostatically charged to draw the resin to surface, much like they do with car finishes.   (Josh might be somewhat familiar with this process).   I have no clue what additives they use to make the lacquer react properly.   

I think HinesArchTop has the right idea.   Some vanilla extract should do the trick!  Just don't get too much, as it might attract the bees when you're playing outside.

On 1/7/2023 at 11:34 AM, ridethatbike said:

Fair questions...

I suppose what I'd personally like is a finish that'll check with a little persuasion. I've had nitro guitars that wouldn't check for anything (at least what I was comfortable doing) and others like my old Vaschenko that would crackle if I looked at it funny or played jazz chords on it.

As for the checking,  it's going to be hard to determine if they are using pure NC or adding something like an alkyd or phthalate to make the film more flexible.   And looking at a safety data sheet may not tell you all the ingredients, since it only has to report the hazardous materials.   The Behlen based lacquers appear to be primarily NC, but if you look closely, there is a bit of silicone in there that probably makes it feel a touch slick.   Sometimes you see a small percentage of silica which is used to give a lower gloss, like a satin look.    Cardinal lacquer is definitely plasticized.   Sherwin Williams is resin modified.   I can't find info on Akzo Nobel.   A lot of people that sell lacquers are just repacking from manufacturers.  

Ok,  I've nerded out log enough.  

 

 

[High Flying Bird]

On 1/7/2023 at 8:18 AM, Spectrum13 said:

Rickenbacker!    

Here is a Rick I used to own and sold to a good friend.  When he passed last June it became mine again.  It still smells like it did the day I bought it.  Now, he smoked a lot of dope... but the guitar smells the same.  I honestly think it is the wood inside.  It is so pure and white looking.  I believe it was made in 1985.  His 360-12 smelled a little differently as did his 4001. 

[pressure]

I have wanted a Ric for 40 years. Everytime I go into a store and try one out I find the necks are just way too small for me.

[davesultra]

1 hour ago, pressure said:

I have wanted a Ric for 40 years. Everytime I go into a store and try one out I find the necks are just way too small for me.

Yup, me too. I always found the string spacing too narrow.

[Kuz]

I owned a blonde 1966 (I think) Ric 330 6 sting, dot inlays, back in the mid-90s.   It had a thinner neck, yes, but it played gloriously.  It was dead mint and sounded fantastic.  Everyone that played it commented on how great the neck was and how well it played and sounded.

Like an IDIOT, I traded it for a guitar I don't even remember because I thought I wanted to be a blues guitarist.  That guitar still haunts me and is only one of maybe 2 or 3 guitars I regret letting go. 

[ElNumero]

On 1/6/2023 at 11:46 PM, Gitfiddler said:

@TalismanRichExcellent and insightful post, Rich.

But I'd like to know who makes the best smelling nitrocellulose.  A new Heritage has a mild sweetness, but I love the vanilla scented NC that Gibson used at one time.

Oohh oohh that smell, cantcha smell that smell…

[High Flying Bird]

22 hours ago, pressure said:

I have wanted a Ric for 40 years. Everytime I go into a store and try one out I find the necks are just way too small for me.

When I bought this Rick I was mainly playing chords.  Ricks are as Brent would say, "the cat's ass," for chords.  Not so much for lead.  They are beautiful instruments.