What is the history of the Sweet 16? and 550

[jazzbo]

Does anybody know which Gword model was the equivalent of the Sweet 16 ?

 

Was it the L-4C or L-4CES

 

 

Also can anyone tell me whether I am correct in my thinking that the H-550 is the Tal Farlow ..I believe it was a laminated (then called plywood) top at its introduction. I get to play a wonderful Tal Farlow at my teacher's studio  and except for the difference between the vintage pups and the hot HRW's the guitars are very similar

 

Will the historians out there help me set this straight ? Is there some one interested in a posting a G-to-Heritage translation chart (or Heritage to G word)? it should be easy to build and would be very interesting , and leads to questions and maybe answers on why Heritage focused on certain models..(maybe it was just the templates that got left behind !!)

 

 

thanks

[Kuz]

All I can add is that post '85, Heritages were built around TONE!!!!

[111518]

In the Gibson system, the L-4 "C" means an L-4 with a cutaway, and the L-4 "CES" means cutaway electric spanish, which was the designation for any hollow or semi-hollow electric.  The L-4 was a 16" archtop with a spruce top, unlike the 17" L-5 or the lam. maple top es-150 or later es-175.   

 

According to Gruhn, the L-4 was introduced with an oval soundhole in 1912, got f holes in 1935, and was discontinued in 1956; the L-4C was introduced in 1949 and discontinued in 1971.  The L-4CES was more rare --a few made in the late 50s, 9 shipped in 1969, reintroduced in 1987.

 

Since the Sweet 16 was introduced as an electric, I guess its ancestor is the rare 50s/60s L-4CES.  Seems to me this was a smart choice by Heritage to produce a 16 inch, high line archtop which Gibson had not produced in great numbers.

 

I've always seen the 550 as derived from the es-350; a 17" lam archtop (like the 550) and what Farlow played before the introduction of his custom model (The 350 should not to be confused with the short scale, thinline 350T, which was like a lam. body Byrdland.)  Since Heritage replaces the first number of the Gibson number with "5")  535=335, 555=355, 575=175, it would follow the logic that the 550 was a 350.  Again, this was a set of features --17" full lam body archtop-- that by the mid80s Gibson had not produced in a long time.

 

As for the rest of the line:

The Super's strongly connect with the Super 400 --split blocks, 18"

The Golden Eagle connect with the L-5, BUT with some differences --the cloud inlays seem to come from top-of-the-line epi's, and the "Eagle" from the Kalamazoo Award models from Gibson's last days in Michigan

Eagle Classics connect with L-7 (??) more simply appointed solid wood 17" archtop, but of course don't have the double parallelogram inlays that characterize the L-7.

I don't think Gibson ever made a solid mahogany archtop like the Eagle, and of course the 575 is solid vs. lam, so maybe the Groovemaster is really closer to the 175?

--all this is just my speculation. 

[fxdx99]

Way to connect the dots, Larry.  Nice read.

[Gitfiddler]

111518~ Excellent comparison!  I was not aware of the L-4C similarities.  Karma up!

 

The only thing I'd like to add is that Heritage seemed to be designing its archtops with many top of the marque builders in mind.  They were one of the first to mass produce a 16" bout solid wood archtop in both the H-575 and its elegant Spruce top sister Sweet 16.  Sure, other smaller boutique luthiers like Anderson, Triggs, etc. have built this class of archtop, but in more limited numbers compared to Heritage.  And don't even look at the pricing differences (New OR Used). 

 

Heritage has something truly special going on in this class of guitar.

[High Flying Bird]

Larry, nice piece.  I will share this with my buds. 

[ingeneri]

I've always seen the 550 as derived from the es-350; a 17" lam archtop (like the 550) and what Farlow played before the introduction of his custom model (The 350 should not to be confused with the short scale, thinline 350T, which was like a lam. body Byrdland.)  Since Heritage replaces the first number of the Gibson number with "5")  535=335, 555=355, 575=175, it would follow the logic that the 550 was a 350.  Again, this was a set of features --17" full lam body archtop-- that by the mid80s Gibson had not produced in a long time.

 

I agree with this since the Tal Farlow signature model has a short scale.  Barney K. also famously played a 350 with a Charlie Christian all his life.  He reportedly disliked his Gibson signature model. I read somewhere that he had such a big falling out with Gibson that he taped over their name on his 350. 

 

It's interesting that the famous Gibson signature Johnny Smith and Tal Farlow archtops were produced after these two musicians had basically "retired".  You basically rarely hear these guitars on either's classic recordings from the 50s. 

[jazzbo]

Thanks Historians

so the Sweet 16 is indeed a L-4CES..florentine cut

 

Regarding the 550,  I still feel strongly that there is a link to the Tal Farlow..note the position of the pup selector switch on a 350  http://www.provide.net/~cfh/gibson3.html

vs the H 550,  On the 350, the pup selector is on the cut away, on the 550 its in a unique place,

 

 

now compare it with this image of a Tal farlow..http://www.archtop.com/ac_98talfarlow.html

 

Since I get to play a genu-wine Tal at my occasional lessons, I can assure you that neck is very similar, 25.5 inch

 

HEre is a great video about the G-Tal history  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0xhD7MOGKc

thanks

[jazzbo]

Here is an interesting photo..

 

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/gibson2.html

 

scroll down to the L-4C accoustic archtop..and hold up a pic of the Sweet 16 next to it..identical except for a big scolling H on the tailpiece and the headstock.

I have put phosphor bronze round wounds on my Sweet 16, and it is a wonderful accoustic all over again

[smurph1]

Hi, Ya'll My name is Smurph1, I just recently bought an old H-140, and thought I'd join the club..I live in West Virginia, and play both bass and guitar..I love the sweet Duane Allman tone of my 140, especially through a fried old tube amp..The pickups will push it into distortion with out even breaking a sweat..I have a question though, What is a "Sweet Sixteen"? By the way, I should have pic's of my fiddle here right soon..

[Kuz]

Sweet 16 Archtop (16inches across)

 

 

[LaVonne]

I love my natural sweet 16.  I've never played G L-4 so correct me if I'm wrong.  the l-4ces is about a 1/2 inch deeper than the sweet 16.  The 16 has a 25.5 inch scale while the l-4 has a 24.75 inch scale.  It looks like the l-4ces has mounted pickups while my 16 has a floating pickup. 

[111518]

I think all of those differences are accurate.  Most Heritage archtops are a little more shallow than the comparable Gibson, and you are right about the scale.   There are other differences.  The L-4, at least by the time it got a cutaway, was a lam. back and sides guitar.  When the L-4CES was reissued in the 80s, it had a mahogany back and sides.  Later reissues returned to lam. maple  --the Sweet 16 has always been a solid carved guitar.  The L-4 has a mahogany neck, the Sweet 16 maple.  I've never seen a reissue l-4 with anything other than two mounted buckers, although the older ones seem to have been made with a range of pickups --p-90s, buckers, there's even been a really cool one on ebay recently with a Charlie Christian pickup (for 12g's!)  I've never seen an L-4 with a floater like the standard Sweet 16, though the only consistent rule about features on Gibsons is that there are exceptions to every rule.

 

The name "L-4" suggest that the guitar is a smaller L-5, but in fact it was always more like a 175 with a spruce top.  The Sweet 16 has more top-of-the-line archtop features: maple neck, solid wood, 25.5 scale, etc.

 

I don't think any Heritage guitars have replicated Gibson specs.  I hope my earlier post didn't cause misunderstanding.   I didn't mean to suggest that a Sweet 16 is an L-4, or that any of the guitars I connected were the same, only that they seem to me to reflect a Heritage strategy of crafting an archtop line that offered sets of basic features that Gibson no longer produced by the mid80s --like a 16" sprucetop, or a 17" lam.  As Gitfiddler suggested, some of the changes --like the floating pickups-- seem to reflect trends in the private-maker archtop world that was emerging at that time.