Which tuners..... ?

[TalismanRich]

A couple of the tuners on my 535 are getting flakey.   The high E seems to be seizing up somewhat, it gets really hard to turn.   The D seems to drift, which makes tuning vary after only a song or two.  

So, I've been looking at tuners to replace the stock Grovers which I'm pretty sure they are just the 102 Rotomatics.   I've been considering going to locking tuners,  and have narrowed the candidates down to Grover 502 Rotogrips,  Gotoh Magnums,  or Graphtech PRL-8341 Ratios.  

One thing that I DON'T want is to have to redrill anything on the headstock.   Anyone have experience with the Ratio tuners?   I like the idea of consistent turns for tuning.    They come with plates that match up to the original holes.  Plus, you can get Ratios with keystone buttons instead of the kidney beans, which I would like to have, but they are more expensive.  Obviously the Grovers are a drop in replacement.    How about the Gotohs?   Are they are drop in replacement?   I can't seem to find the spacing between the mounting hole and the screw (0.413 inches).    Has anyone used them?  

Any other candidates that might work?  

[ElChoad]

You can get the Grover 502s with several different buttons. I usually go with the nickel keystones, which are the 502NKs. I am also curious about the Ratio tuners, and will be watching this thread to see if anybody has used them. 

[rockabilly69]

31 minutes ago, ElChoad said:

You can get the Grover 502s with several different buttons. I usually go with the nickel keystones, which are the 502NKs. I am also curious about the Ratio tuners, and will be watching this thread to see if anybody has used them. 

I have ratio tuners on one of my Teles and they are great. 

[PunkKitty]

Avoid Hipshots. The tuners are great, but the Heritage headstock is slightly thicker than Gibsons. The Hipshots are too short. 

I'd stick with Grover, Kluson, Gotoh, and Ratios.

[TalismanRich]

Good info so far.   I found some dimensions for the Gotoh tuners, and they are supposed to be a drop in as well.    I'll have to track down some of the 502NKs.   I'm narrowing down to those and the Ratios. 

[t0aj15]

17 hours ago, rockabilly69 said:

I have ratio tuners on one of my Teles and they are great. 

Ditto!

[Rod]

I've been looking at Gotoh 510Z's on the LMI clearance sale.  Looks like the center shaft to center screw dimension is the same as the Grovers (10.5mm) but the Gotoh shows a 10mm hub (that goes into the headstock) and the Grovers are 9.9mm.  I verified the Grovers with a digital caliper.  Best I can measure the hole in the headstock, it's 9.95mm.  Definitely not 10mm+.  I suppose since Gotoh says their hub is 10mm it's not 9.9, so the hole would have to be reamed/drilled out to about 10.5mm.  Not something I'm willing to do.  The other marked difference is from the center of the string shaft to the end of the input shaft (at the base of the button).  The Grover is 17.4mm, the Gotoh is 27.5mm.  Seems like a lot of difference.  I'm not sure what that'd look like, even if I decided to ream out the headstock.  

[TalismanRich]

I placed an order for some Grover 502NKs.   I decide on the nickel instead of the chrome.    They should be here by Thursday or Friday.   The plan will be to do surgery this weekend.  

This will be my first set of locking tuners.   Maybe I'll change strings more often after this.

[TalismanRich]

Rod,  I think you are mixing the measurements.    The Gotoh is 27.5mm from the back of the tuner to the base of the button.   The Grover is 24.8mm, so not a huge difference.   

While I'm pretty certain that the Ratios would work fine,  I decided to stick with the Grovers.   I've had Grovers on all 5 of my Heritages, and they are on my 74 Guild and never gave me a problem.   This issue on my 535 is the first time I've run into a problem, so that's pretty reliable.  

One place even had Grovers with the plastic keystone buttons, but I decided to stick with the metal ones.   It's just an aesthetic thing, and I think the metal ones will last longer than I will.   I've known of plastic buttons that needed replacing after they cracked or started slipping.  

 

[Rod]

You are correct.  I'm not seeing the drawing you're looking at with the 24.8mm dimension, but I did look that the drawings wrong.  The Grover dimension is from the center of the shaft to the base of the button and the Gotoh drawing does not show that dimension, but instead shows the dimension from the back of the tuner to the base of the button. 

I'm wondering about the 10mm hub.  Seems like the tuners are interchangeable in every other dimension except the 0.1mm difference in the hub (smaller on the Grover).  I think I read on the Gotoh site that that tuner requires a 10mm hole.  It'd have to have some clearance, so it seems like MAYBE they throw 10mm around pretty loosely.  If I knew I wouldn't have to ream the hole, I'd buy the Gotoh 510Z's from LMI.  I'll email them and see if I get a response.        

[TalismanRich]

0.1mm is a really small amount.  You're talking .004 inches.    The tuners aren't exactly press fit into the holes, so I suspect there would be enough clearance.

[ElChoad]

Locking tuners are the way to go. I have two sets of regular ones I need to replace with locking ones.

[goSteelers]

Ratio tuners, period.  Once you tune with them, you will never want to tune with anything else.  G and low E -- a breeze.  I put them on a number of guitars, including Heritages, and even a bass with no drilling whatsoever -- they come with a variety of little adapter plates that match up with the holes of most other tuner brands.  The plates that come with the tuners have a dull finish, but you can buy plates with a variety of finishes, if that matters to you.  I just use the ones that come with the tuners. 

[Rod]

17 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

0.1mm is a really small amount.  You're talking .004 inches.    The tuners aren't exactly press fit into the holes, so I suspect there would be enough clearance.

The one I pulled out of a 150 to take the measurements was snug.  No slack.  I wouldn't call it a press fit (you don't have to force it, or drive it in), but you do have to push it a little into the hole.  A pretty tight fit.  This is what I got back from LMI.

Thanks for writing. That 10mm measurement is accurate. We sell a headstock drilling jig, which accommodates a 10mm brad drill bit to bore out the holes for the tuner bushings and machine heads. I hope this information is helpful, let us know if you have any other questions.

Best Regards,
Kyle @ Luthiers Mercantile

I could come up with a way to take out .1mm+ without resorting to a headstock drilling jig, but I was going to put these tuners on a 555.  Not going to do it on that one.  The safe way is to do what you did and replace with Grovers, or find another tuner that has a 9.9mm hub.

[TalismanRich]

If I like the Grovers in the 535,  I might consider trying the Ratio tuners in my 157 or my Mille 2000.   I'll have to go with the gold tuners for those guitars.  

Looking at the specs for the Ratios,  it says it's a 9.7mm hole, so that should easily fit in the hole from the Grovers.  

I haven't seen any comments on the weight of the Ratios or the Grover locking  vs the stock Grovers.   The Chrome 102 tuners are supposed to be .622 lbs where the Ratios are .496 lbs, so a very slight difference.   I don't know if the Grover spec includes the shipping material, tho.  The number came from StewMac's website.

[ElNumero]

On 11/5/2023 at 9:56 PM, TalismanRich said:

A couple of the tuners on my 535 are getting flakey.   The high E seems to be seizing up somewhat, it gets really hard to turn.   The D seems to drift, which makes tuning vary after only a song or two.  

So, I've been looking at tuners to replace the stock Grovers which I'm pretty sure they are just the 102 Rotomatics.   I've been considering going to locking tuners,  and have narrowed the candidates down to Grover 502 Rotogrips,  Gotoh Magnums,  or Graphtech PRL-8341 Ratios.  

One thing that I DON'T want is to have to redrill anything on the headstock.   Anyone have experience with the Ratio tuners?   I like the idea of consistent turns for tuning.    They come with plates that match up to the original holes.  Plus, you can get Ratios with keystone buttons instead of the kidney beans, which I would like to have, but they are more expensive.  Obviously the Grovers are a drop in replacement.    How about the Gotohs?   Are they are drop in replacement?   I can't seem to find the spacing between the mounting hole and the screw (0.413 inches).    Has anyone used them?  

Any other candidates that might work?  

You should move it out of your garage.  That environment probably took a toll on it!

[TalismanRich]

11 minutes ago, ElNumero said:

You should move it out of your garage.  That environment probably took a toll on it!

They just got worn out.    I guess I'm just playing it too much!

[TalismanRich]

The new tuners arrived Thursday late, but I didn't get home until midnight and didn't see them until Friday morning.     Hoping to do some work on it tomorrow.

[bolero]

I like the stock Grovers well enough myself, never had any problems with them.

 

[TalismanRich]

It took a couple of days to get to the project, but it was an absolutely simple job.    I didn't even need to use the new mounting hardware,  it was exactly the same so I just swapped out the tuner.    It took more time that I planned because while I had the strings off,  I got the Virtuoso polish out and gave everything a nice buffing, especially under the strings and around the bridge.  A little toothbrush action to clean the gunk around the frets was needed as well.  

The keystones look nice.   Stringing up will take 1/4 the amount of time it used to take.  

Mission accomplished.

[TalismanRich]

Oh yeah,  the couple of tuners that were problemantic felt really sloppy once I removed them.   The new ones are smooth, a bit tighter than the old ones.   They tuned up and stayed right on tune after a few bends to stretch in the new strings.

[Gianluca]

interesting thread, something I need to fix on my Gold Top H150 too