Nibs on Heritage? (pondering frets)

[nuke]

A few weeks ago, I acquired a 2001 H535 with HRW's in natural maple. It's gorgeous and sounds great. The guitar seems to be nearly unplayed condition as well. 

Now that the excitement of newness has faded a bit, I note that the fretwork and the nut slotting were not the best work I've ever seen. This one has binding nibs over the end of the frets. By comparison, my 1998 H150 has fantastic fret work and plays like butter even after I've played the heck out of it for 20-something years. 

The nut is easy to adjust. The frets though, were shaped in a manner that lowers toward the fingerboard too far from the edge on the treble side. That and the nibs reduce the amount of 1st string playable area a bit. Had a few places with some poor leveling under the 1st string as well that were correctable. The fretwire appears to be the same as what was put on the H150, just leveled lower too far from the treble edge and with binding nibs. 

My H150 I've never had anything done to the frets, other than polish them from time to time. I've worn some divots in the lower frets, but not enough to warrant correction. 

I was under the impression that Heritage guitars didn't normally have the nibs in the late-90's-early-2000's, but I'm wrong about that?

Kind of pondering a refret to get the H535 to play more like my H150 does. Lose the nibs in process, use the same wire on my H150 and same leveling process to maximize the playable area towards the edge of the fingerboard. Comments?

[bolero]

Pretty sure anything with binding also had nibs? But there are different thicknesses of binding.

A refret sounds like the only option to me. I don't think it's possible to add material to a fret. Might get away with a partial refret?

Maybe a previous owner messed with it trying to dress frets

Can you post a pic?

[big bob]

Stainless steel baby

[TalismanRich]

My H140 is unbound, so no nibs on the fret ends.   My 157, 535 and Millennium all have nibs although the 535's binding appears to be thinner than the 157 and Millennium, so the nibs aren't as apparent.  The Millennium is a 2000,  my 157 is 2003 and the 535 is a 2005.

I think pretty much all Heritages with bound fretboards have the nibs on the fret ends.   They have a device that cuts the binding down after it has been put on the sides.

Here's a video of them doing fretboards and binding nibs.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjz0tX9q5t8

 

The binding should not be inside the actual fretboard.   The frets should be right to the edge of the wood, then the binding is applied  later.

Edited July 17 by TalismanRich

[pressure]

When Heritage makes a custom guitar for you they will eliminate the nibs by putting the frets on top of the binding.

If you ask nicely.

Good times.

Edited July 17 by pressure

[nuke]

I took a real close look at both, my H150 (1998) and H535 (2001).  

I bought the H150 around 2001 at a guitar show, from Buffalo Brothers, who were a big Heritage Dealer long ago. They told me it was part of a special dealer run that they ordered in 1998. Their customer traded in for another guitar. Unlike most 1998 H150's, it came with a tune-o-matic bridge and tailpiece (nashville and heavy zinc, exactly like Gibson) and Seymour Duncan 59's.  

The H535 (2001) was a recent acquisition. It literally looks nearly unplayed, inside and out. It had the usual hardware on it, Schaller roller, top-loader tail, and HRW pickups. The hardware looks nearly factory new, as do the pickups. It looks like it was a case queen.

I looked at the frets under magnification and measured them. I'm convinced they're factory, over the binding. They're also jumbo, larger than the H535. Looks like 57x110 (like Dunlop 6100).  The binding is also different than my H535, much thinner. No nibs, as the board looks like it was bound, then fretted. 

Fretwork on the H150 is very high quality. Fretboard prep is really great on it, as well as the fret work itself. If it was a refret, I wanna meet that guy, cause it shows no sign of refret. Checking truss action with a notched straightedge (fretboard) vs. a ground straightedge (tops of frets) are pretty close to flat with each other. (sign of good board prep before fretting). 

By comparison, the H535 frets are almost certainly Jescar 47105 (.047x .104) wire. Nibs of course, binding is a lot deeper (front to back) than the H150.  Fretboard and fretwork not as nicely done overall. There's really no wear on them, anywhere. Using the notched and ground straightedges, truss adjustment shows board flat vs. frets flat at very different settings. Means the fretboard prep wasn't as well done.  While the fret tops are well dressed, the finished height from the top of the fretboard are significantly different all over the neck. It ranges from about .035 in the first few frets to about .044 above the 12th fret. 

Despite all that, the 535 still plays pretty well, sounds fantastic and looks beautiful. I'm considering perhaps refretting it the same as the H150. Would lose the nibs, but it would probably play very well. 

[Gitfiddler]

The only Heritage I had re-fretted was my H157.  It was a custom order with several upgrades, but the tiny frets were my least favorite.

I had it re-fretted by Gary Brawer, one of the best guitar techs in the SF Bay area.  He followed my request for "no nibs". 

The end project came out fabulous!  Each fret end has a rounded (hot dog) shape and the guitar plays superb. 

Not sure why more guitar builders don't offer this as an option.

[TalismanRich]

I don't have a "need" for the nibs,  except that they do make the edges of the frets much less dangerous.    The perfectly rounded edges of the frets of my Melancon T are great.   If I was to have one of my Heritages refretted,  it would probably be with nibless stainless steel frets. 

However, at my age, I doubt I'll ever wear out the frets of the guitars I have.

Edited July 20 by TalismanRich

[Rickco123]

Great video, anyone know what glue he was using?  He mentioned acetone so some form of cyano?

[TalismanRich]

No cyano...   I'm 99% sure the plastic is acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS), the same as the binding itself.  It's the same plastic as used for things like Legos.   It's totally soluble in acetone.  They dissolve the plastic in the solvent and it becomes an excellent adhesive.  

Cyanoacrylates can be tricky to work with since they cure almost immediately, and are difficult to clean up if there's any problem.   Shelf life is short.  It's great for quick touchups where you only need to adhere a small area.   For doing bindings for hours at a time,  the ABS/Acetone is much better to work with.

[tbonesullivan]

Nibs have always been interesting to think about, as a lot of companies who have bound necks avoid nibs like the plague. Martin guitars usually don't have bound necks, and when they do, the frets go over the binding I believe. Ibanez guitars, even the high end Japanese signature and hollow body models, have the frets over the binding. I think Taylor guitars does as well.

However, with binding, that means you don't really need to dress the fret ends, which saves time. I've seen some articles by Dan Erlewine regarding saving the nibs when refretting. However usually they are a pain to deal with if you want to refret the guitar. You need to have the frets perfectly measured or when you hammer them in they may not fit.

[nuke]

I think nibs are more of a process thing. Fretboards are mass produced and fretted before attaching to the neck. It's a lot easier to mass produce bound fretboards by installing the binding after the frets are installed, leveled, crowned and ends beveled. The board is shaped, with the channel for binding, then the frets installed and trimmed and dressed, then binding is glued on to the edge of the fretboard. Then it is trimmed level with eh edge of the wood, leaving a nib at the fret end.  It's just faster and easier that way. 

I have a Martin acoustic with a bound fretboard (OMC-PA1 with ovangkal binding).  Martin uses a "pocketed" technique to apply frets over the binding, with CNC doing all the precision work on the fretboard slots, leaving the bound part unslotted. (at least that's how it was explained to me at the Martin factory). 

 

[TalismanRich]

IF you watched the video I posted earlier,  you can see how Heritage did the fretboards.

 

[nuke]

23 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

IF you watched the video I posted earlier,  you can see how Heritage did the fretboards.

 

 

Yup, Gibson does it the same way and pretty much everyone else who winds up with nibs. 

Martin has been doing "pocketed" fret slots even on unbound fingerboards, so no visible fret tangs. 

 

 

[DetroitBlues]

If memory serves, there was a point where Heritage felt it was the shops responsibility to finalize the setup work.  Nut and frets.  Quality varied guitar to guitar, especially depending on the season.  The paint booth was just a closet next to an open window.  No temperature or humidity controls.

Post 2016, with new ownership with the funds to invest into the business, many of these things changed for the better regardless of what some of the legacy members feel.

[TalismanRich]

I always thought the spray booth was a fire waiting to happen.  The new booth pretty much guarantees that you won't be getting stray dust or bug on your freshly sprayed nitro.  

I don't know that they felt the retail shops should be doing fretwork, but I think they tried to set things up to a rough "standard" and if the buyer wanted the action adjusted, the shops were supposed to do it.  But some of the nut slotting could have been better years ago. 

[Gitfiddler]

Jay Wolfe's shop advertised that they Plek'd each Heritage that came into their shop back in the day.  Not sure if the variability of Heritage guitars from the factory prompted that move or not.  I bought two Heritage guitars from him, one new (H555) and another used (H575) and both were set up perfectly. 

[yoslate]

On 8/26/2024 at 7:47 PM, Gitfiddler said:

Jay Wolfe's shop advertised that they Plek'd each Heritage that came into their shop back in the day.  Not sure if the variability of Heritage guitars from the factory prompted that move or not.

I still chuckle at the first time I saw Heritage's Plek machine...covered in a patina of sawdust, with several coats hanging on it.  Gotta love the Ol' Boys...!  

[zguitar71]

I think often the nib frets start sloping to the edge of the board too soon, I’m not sure why but possibly it has something to do with matching the height of the binding used, idk. I have a 2011 Goldtop 150. It has the nibs and it was pretty atrocious how bad the fret work was when I bought it. It was used, less than a year old but it probably was never played and I’m sure the fretwork was from the factory. I leveled the frets and crowned them. Then did it again about four years later and then again probably four years after that. Now it is about four years later again and the frets are low and it is time for new frets. This is my main guitar and it gets a lot of play time and I bend quite a bit so the frets get worn fast. While I do love the look of the nibs they are going bye bye with a new fret job. I’ve had other nib guitars and I have eliminated the nibs on them with new frets too. I prefer the frets to go to the edge.  I’m going to do it this winter during a low gig window and after I’ve retiled my backsplash (or risk some serious trouble for putting it off for another guitar/amp project!). 

[chico]

I will admit that a friend of mine bought an arch top mid 90’s that he said had a nibs issue. 

[nuke]

Yeah, my 2001 H535 fret issues are varied. I can set the truss rod to get the fretboard straight using a notched straight edge. However, at that setting, the frets are not leveled properly nor does the relief match the tops of the frets.  Or set the truss rod to make the relief measured at the fret tops more correct, which makes the fretboard wonky. 

The other issue is the frets are rolled off too far from the treble edge, especially frets 1 - 5. 

I don't know if it was bad factory work or someone did a bad job on it before I owned it. 2001 was kind of a weird time at Heritage. Some real gems from that era, but seems like consistency was off. 

I did a bit of leveling and crowning and it is better. Not completely happy with it though. Planning on a full refret with Dunlop 6100, bit wider and a fair bit taller fret. That's what's on my H150 and it plays like butter. 

Going to do a full refret, lose the nibs, and pay attention to properly level the fretboard first before installing the new frets. 

Guitar sounds great, looks great, but I don't think it lives up to its potential without fretwork.