Leaving old Schaller tailpiece and bridge on

[MartyGrass]

I note that some don't change out the hardware on the earlier Heritages.  The bridge works very well with a Bigsby.  Otherwise, why do you keep the old stuff on.

1. If there's no problem, why bother?

2. I prefer the old hardware over replacements.

3. I don't want to alter the instrument for the sake of its integrety.

4. Cost too much or too much hassle even though there are better options available.

 

Personally the tailpiece works well but is heavy and looks odd.  The roller bridge likely isn't as "crisp".  

 

[nuke]

There's nothing wrong with the Schaller top-loader tailpiece nor the roller bridge.  They're on the heavy side and that's out of fashion these days. The rest of the objection is look and feel. I'm more accustomed to the common Tune-o-matic bridges and stop tail piece, in terms of how they feel under my hand.  I also have a 1984 Fender Esprit Elite, which also came factory with the Schaller bridge and tail. I've played it for many years.

The bridge is nice because you can set the string to string spacing. I'm not sure it is intended as a "roller" so much as it is intended for allowing for string spacing adjustment. 

One thing that does go wrong with the roller bridge (Schaller calls it STM bridge) is the threaded rod on each roller works loose from the forks that hold them. They're just peened into place at manufacture and over time, they work loose. The looseness tends to be a bit of a tone-sucker. Also, they sometimes get so loose they fall out if a string breaks or during a string change. 

The fix is pretty simple: You can get brand new saddles from Schaller right off their website.  If they aren't broken, I've found putting the tiniest spec (teeny-tiny) of red loctite into each fork and inserting the roller assembly back in is a permanent fix. 

Don't try to tighten the forks by bending, they're made of zinc and will just crack. It's why they come loose in the first place. 

The Schaller bridge and tail are just fine, work as well as a Nashville and heavy zinc stop bar in every respect, and allow for string spacing adjustment. 

[Heritage1970]

I know I'm in the minority as I always leave Schaller hardware on when that's what the guitar originally came with. I'm all about whatever works best for each individual player. Speaking for myself, I just like to keep guitars stock spec. All my old Heritage models I leave Schaller hardware on and have even gone back and swapped out replacements previous owners put on, and I put the proper period correct Schaller hardware back in place. I really don't understand the dislike for the roller bridge and quick change tailpiece. I think they work great and have never had a problem with either one. But again- to each their own. Do what makes you play the best. 

[tbonesullivan]

I was at one of the PSPs when Vince Lewis was there, and he had the Schaller roller bridge on his guitar. He said it gave a warmer tone.

Schaller makes great hardware, and I actually had the original style hardware put back on my H535 when I got it. I like the look.

[rockabilly69]

I've said this more than once, I worked on peoples guitars as part of my income when I first quit my day job about 25 years ago. I worked on more guitars than I can count and I tried a ton of replacement parts. So to answer the OPs questions.

1. If there's no problem, why bother?  Because IMNSHO many replacement bridges sound better, and to me look better.

2. I prefer the old hardware over replacements. I don't:)

3. I don't want to alter the instrument for the sake of its integrety. What Integrity? Heritage didn't pick all the parts because they were the best for instrument, they picked from suppliers that gave them a good deal. So why keep the integrity? You could always keep the old parts in the case!

4. Cost too much or too much hassle even though there are better options available. Faber offers 20% off sale on reasonable prices, on very good bridges and tails, and when changing strings it shouldn't take more than a half hour of your time to replace the bridge and that includes intonating it.

As for Schaller roller bridges, I would take an intonated Bigsby bridge or TruArc bridge every time over a Schaller. In all my experience, and in Schaller's defense, I've never seen a ANY roller bridge that to me was worth using, they always robbed tone. And more than once they've cause vibrations and buzzing! As for stock Schaller hardware, if it sounds good, or more importantly if you like the sound, then why change it. Personally, I'm a vintage tone kind of player, and I think a proper ABR that is screwed directly into the body is the way to go with Heritage H150s for my TONE. And for that type of guitar H150/LesPaul, for me, it's the only way I go. For certain types of heavy music I think a bridge with more mass and weight might work better for sustain (at the cost of resonance), so I could see using the stock Schaller (but not a NAsville as they are hollow). In my case though, I don't care what comes on an H150, Schaller, Nashville, I immediately pull them off and put on a proper ABR, and NEVER once did the stock bridge sound as good as the bridge I replaced it with, which most of the time is FABER with screw-in inserts, and Tone loc bridge, with nickel plated brass saddles. Personally I think Heritage used Schallers and Nashvilles because it takes more time to correctly install a proper ABR. I remember the first time I swapped a Faber bridge and the deeper german steel inserts into my H150. It was awesome that guitar came alive!!! I that particular bridge into 1 Les Paul, 3 H150s, 2 Firebirds, 1 SG Classic, 1 Les Paul Special, and the only time the guitar didn't sound better was with the SG Classic. But a few weeks later, out of the clear blue I got a package from Larry at Faber and in it was a new bridge because he said they had a bad run of bridges, and that's what I put on that classic. Soon as I put the new one on, it sounded great!

I hold NO stock part sacred!

A lot of people like to keep things they way their guitar came from the factory, but me, if I think something is lacking, I immediately get to work on it. I don't suffer anything on a guitar that I can make sound or work better for me. I just bought my Holy Grail guitar, which originally sold for $10,000 when new, and most people would think it a travesty to work on an expensive guitar like that, but I already bought the pickups I want to hear it with and different value pots and caps. I LOVE the guitar's construction, the bridge and tailpiece on these lock down and are hand made to perfection, the look knocks me out, and frankly I've never played a guitar with a better neck shape, smoother feeling fretboard, or better fretwork, but I think the pickups that they chose to use in it aren't as good as other's I've used. So out comes the soldering iron.

I make a living with my guitars, either playing live, or recording for people. Personally there are very few guitars that I've picked up and thought to myself I can't make this better FOR ME. I've swapped out some parts in my day that didn't work out, but I just kept on going till I found what I liked.

Playing and recording is my living, modding guitars is more of a hobby/passion that works along with what I do for a living:) 

[t0aj15]

🙃

Edited September 9 by t0aj15

[ElNumero]

19 hours ago, MartyGrass said:

I note that some don't change out the hardware on the earlier Heritages.  The bridge works very well with a Bigsby.  Otherwise, why do you keep the old stuff on.

1. If there's no problem, why bother?

2. I prefer the old hardware over replacements.

3. I don't want to alter the instrument for the sake of its integrety.

4. Cost too much or too much hassle even though there are better options available.

 

Personally the tailpiece works well but is heavy and looks odd.  The roller bridge likely isn't as "crisp".  

 

Something to consider; the original Schaller hardware was actually manufactured in Germany. The ABR-1 and Nashville hardware that is used on Gibson‘s and probably Heritage too is all made in China.

[rockabilly69]

•  

7 hours ago, ElNumero said:

Something to consider; the original Schaller hardware was actually manufactured in Germany. The ABR-1 and Nashville hardware that is used on Gibson‘s and probably Heritage too is all made in China.

I'll take a proper ABR made in China over any inferior bridge made in Germany. That said, Faber bridges are German! SO are ABM another fine maker of ABRs

[Heritage1970]

9 hours ago, ElNumero said:

Something to consider; the original Schaller hardware was actually manufactured in Germany. The ABR-1 and Nashville hardware that is used on Gibson‘s and probably Heritage too is all made in China.

True. I play music for a living and have for many years now. So I use my guitars for tools to make a living as well as collect, etc. For me personally, I just like keeping things stock. I had a big conversation with Warren Haynes about this a few years back and he agreed. He said he's not a big swapper of hardware either. If he grabs a guitar and it's not doing it for him, he just grabs a different one. He's not a big fan of swapping out pickups etc. But again, it's a personal thing. Nothing is really right or wrong. Some people like chocolate ice cream, some people don't. That doesn't really mean it's good or bad. It's just a personal opinion. And for me personally, I've never had a problem with tone or anything with Schaller hardware.

[rockabilly69]

2 hours ago, Heritage1970 said:

it's a personal thing. Nothing is really right or wrong. Some people like chocolate ice cream, some people don't. That doesn't really mean it's good or bad. It's just a personal opinion. 

I definitely don't agree with keeping things stock (although I have a few guitars that are perfectly fine stock) but your statement here, I couldn't agree with more. It's your guitar, you've got to play it, and if it works for you, that's good enough. 

[bolero]

Yeah I couldn't care less what anyone else does with their guitar. Luckily we have lots of options now, if we're so inclined.

[Heritage1970]

3 hours ago, rockabilly69 said:

I definitely don't agree with keeping things stock (although I have a few guitars that are perfectly fine stock) but your statement here, I couldn't agree with more. It's your guitar, you've got to play it, and if it works for you, that's good enough. 

Exactly! I personally feel that way about life in general. Music, food, cars. It's all subjective. Nothing really sucks and nothing's really great. One person's garbage is another person's masterpiece. 

[davesultra]

I have all the stock Schaller stuff on my 88’ H-140. It’s not my favorite, but I don’t dislike it enough to change the hardware to something else.

Edited September 10 by davesultra

[TalismanRich]

The only thing that I've changed on my Heritages are a couple of sets of pickups.   The originals in my H-140 were bad, so I put in Alnico Pro IIs.   I put some Sheptones in my 535.  It changed the sound in both.   The 525,  Mille and 157 all have the stock pups.   The bridge and tailpieces are all stock. 

I tried changing the saddles on my G&L Legacy hoping to get a little more of that "twang" but it really didn't change enough for me to even notice.   I've changed a few pots and tried changing the tone caps.   The pots were because of a bit of scratchiness.  I don't know that the cap change did anything. 

[DetroitBlues]

Only problem I ever had with the old Schaller stuff was a tailpiece had a burr that kept cutting the high e string and causing it to snap.  

Otherwise, I don't have an issue with them.

Some debate sustain, tone loss, etc.

I have a cheaply made Les Paul Jr that has hardware from Guitar Fetish.  Stuff has held up great after nearly ten years.  I don't notice a sustain issue, lack of tone, etc.  It works.

I say unless the parts are corroded or damaged in some way, just leave them alone.

[nuke]

I own two Heritage guitars, a 1998 H150-CM which was factory-equipped with a Nashville bridge and a zinc stop tailpiece, as well as Seymour Duncan 59's. I bought it second-hand from the dealer who had a special run made and their customer traded it in.  It was also fretted with 6100 wire and no nibs. Possibly done by prior owner, but they look factory to me. 

I swapped the zinc tail piece and Nashville bridge for Faber ABR and aluminum, and replaced the heavy Rotomatics with exact fit Gotoh tuners and lost enough weight to bring the whole thing nicely under 9lbs.

I have a 2001 H535, which I bought recently in near-mint condition. It came with the usual Schaller hardware and HRW pickups, the medium jumbo fretwire and nibs. I've tried a few combos of ABR bridge and tailpieces, including a Nashville, anylon saddle ABR, and a Faber tone-lock ABR. I have an aluminum stop bar on it. I couldn't lock the Faber tail on, since the stud holes are a bit too shallow on this particular 535. 

Honestly, I can't say any of the bridges were ground-breakingly different in tone.  If anything, the tune-o-matic bridges are slightly brighter sounding, and a little bit off my target of getting more of that mid-range forward semi-hollow sound. 

The nylon saddle ABR bridge really didn't sound materially different than the nashville, nor the metal saddle ABR. 

I'm considering just putting the Schaller stuff back on it. Like I said, they're in near-mint condition. Kind of weird looking and not exactly what I'm used to. But I can certainly play them well enough. 

I played a Collings I35-LC the other day. Holy cow, that thing sounded absolutely amazing. Totally nailed the tone. Collings uses the heavy zinc tail and ABR from Kluson of all things. Whatever they did with the wood though really hit the mark. Acoustically it instantly had that sound. 

Edited September 11 by nuke

[ElNumero]

On 9/9/2024 at 4:26 PM, Heritage1970 said:

True. I play music for a living and have for many years now. So I use my guitars for tools to make a living as well as collect, etc. For me personally, I just like keeping things stock. I had a big conversation with Warren Haynes about this a few years back and he agreed. He said he's not a big swapper of hardware either. If he grabs a guitar and it's not doing it for him, he just grabs a different one. He's not a big fan of swapping out pickups etc. But again, it's a personal thing. Nothing is really right or wrong. Some people like chocolate ice cream, some people don't. That doesn't really mean it's good or bad. It's just a personal opinion. And for me personally, I've never had a problem with tone or anything with Schaller hardware.

Agree!!!

[ElNumero]

On 9/9/2024 at 2:55 PM, rockabilly69 said:

•  

I'll take a proper ABR made in China over any inferior bridge made in Germany. That said, Faber bridges are German! SO are ABM another fine maker of ABRs

Absolutely Daniel. The only reason I swapped out the Schaller hardware on my 2001 150 with the Nashville style was just for appearance . I didn’t notice any difference in sound at all after. I could care less where it was made. 

[tbonesullivan]

On 9/11/2024 at 2:39 PM, nuke said:

I'm considering just putting the Schaller stuff back on it. Like I said, they're in near-mint condition. Kind of weird looking and not exactly what I'm used to. But I can certainly play them well enough. 

I played a Collings I35-LC the other day. Holy cow, that thing sounded absolutely amazing. Totally nailed the tone. Collings uses the heavy zinc tail and ABR from Kluson of all things. Whatever they did with the wood though really hit the mark. Acoustically it instantly had that sound. 

I have the roller bridges on two of my Heritages, and one has a Bigsby, which really makes it a better choice, for me anyway. For the other, just never noticed a difference, and kinda liked the unique look of the Schaller tailpiece and bridge, and they also matched the chrome schaller pickups on the guitar.

I have heard that the Kluson ABR-1 may be the "closest" to the "original". There are, of course, a ton of magical properties assigned to the ABR-1 design, and the changes over the 1950s and 1960s have been sliced and diced to bits, with many claiming they have the "one true" replica. It's like they forget that even in the 1950s, Gibson was a COMPANY, making a PRODUCT. Why did they use acrylic inlays? They were more cost effective. The changes to the ABR-1 were often cost related, as was the change to the Nashville style bridge. The early ABR-1s were supposed to have fairly soft brass saddles, and there may have been variations in the alloys used for making the main body of the bridge. These days many makers use alloys in their ABR-1s that won't collapse over the years, so who can say how accurate they are.

And then there are the Babicz bridges, which are designed so that the entire bottom of the bridge is in contact with the body via a shim.

Edited September 14 by tbonesullivan

[nuke]

There's all kinds of crazy theories out there. 

The most coveted vintage Gibson electrics are the sunburst Les Paul standards from about 57-60.  In reality, these were factory-equipped with *nylon* nuts, aluminum tailpieces, the early ABR-1 bridges without retaining wires (so you can look for the saddle and screw on a dark stage when a string breaks) The ABR-1 was mounted on 6-32 machine screws threaded directly into the wood, which had a tendency to lean over time from string pressure. The bodies were cemented together with phenol glue, which was radio-induction cured (literally radio-frequency electromagnetic radiation) not "hide glue" like everyone thinks. They also used aniline red dye, which bled into the binding and quickly faded on exposure to sunlight, even in store windows before they could be sold. 

The wire was added to the ABR-1 to prevent loss of the saddles when changing a string or when one broke. They went to threaded inserts so they wouldn't tend lean over time and to improve manufacturability. 

The tailpiece went to zinc as a cost saving measure. 

The Nashville bridge allowed for more adjustment range, since not all the necks mated to bodies in the right place... But as a benefit, the saddle no longer came loose and pinged across dark stages, nor was there a crappy wire to rattle and buzz. 

Then there's the whole rabbit hole of pickups too. 

I have a Gibson 1960-R2 Custom Shop 60th anniversary Les Paul. It is awesome actually. 8lbs and about 2 ounces, single piece body and all the pure vintagy hoo-hah. But I have to say, it plays and sounds incredible. Totally nails that "a great Les Paul sounds like a beefy Telecaster" thing in spades. 

There's really nothing wrong with the Schaller hardware or their humbucker pickups for that matter. 

[High Flying Bird]

Most of my friend's Heritage Guitars came from a while back and had the Schaller hardware.  After owning them for so long we don't see why we need to change.  It is nice that you can change out parts so easily for what ever you want.  If you break a string and the roller comes off and falls into the carpet you might consider it for a few minutes. 

[MartyGrass]

Someone told me to put a dab of Loctite on the rollers.  I did that once.  I think it worked but don't remember.  But I found that if I'm careful during string changes, it's fine anyway.  You are right about string breaks though.

[tsp17]

On 9/9/2024 at 1:21 AM, rockabilly69 said:

I

I hold NO stock part sacred!

 

What he said.  I get the value in a true vintage instrument in its original stock form for collectability, posterity, nostalgia and resale value.  But if I’m playing it for my own enjoyment or performing with it, I’ll customize it to feel, look and sound good to me. 

I usually keep the stock parts so that the next person can make their own decision based on their preferences, and it enhances the resale value.   Other than that, game on.  I’ve changed out at least one part on almost every guitar I’ve owned.  Even my Super KB. 

 

[rockabilly69]

11 hours ago, tsp17 said:

What he said.  I get the value in a true vintage instrument in its original stock form for collectability, posterity, nostalgia and resale value.  But if I’m playing it for my own enjoyment or performing with it, I’ll customize it to feel, look and sound good to me. 

I usually keep the stock parts so that the next person can make their own decision based on their preferences, and it enhances the resale value.   Other than that, game on.  I’ve changed out at least one part on almost every guitar I’ve owned.  Even my Super KB. 

 

I approve of this post 1000000%!!! It's our guitars, we've got to play them, we should make them the way we want them! 

Speaking of parts I've been getting parts in the  US mail/UPS for rewiring my new Zemaitis guitars, and I can't wait to start the work on them. I'm just a few parts shy! Come on UPS! I've been researching for the last few weeks on the electronic parts and the wiring schemes used in the original Tony Zemaitis guitars, and funny enough, most the original wiring cavities are pretty sloppy so it's been a slow go trying to figure out what to use to get me there. But I'm just getting ideas from the research. Most likely I will develop my own wiring scheme. One thing that particularly intrigues me is the wiring for the Reverend Kyle Shutt guitar, which is 4 knob with Vol,Vol,Tone, and Bass contour. I'm not a fan of his playing, to be fair not my kind of genre, but I like the thinking behind his wiring choices!

[MartyGrass]

Some of us are born with inclinations towards solving problems, engineering, and being a mechanic.  I'm one of them.  I learned soldering, replacing harnesses, set ups, etc. with guitars because I liked learning and doing it.  Every time I pick up a guitar I subconsciously assess the set up and the state of the strings.

I had not thought of this before, but it reminds me of the military, particularly the Marines.  They bond to their rifle and care for its every need.