Chinese Made Heritages - Diminished the value?

[DetroitBlues]

The new Ascent lineup seems to be growing, although only a few social media influencers I have found are talking about them.

Because of this history of Gibson with Heritage, I usually only compare the two business practices and exclude anyone else.  In the 1970's Gibson decided to make the Epiphone brand their import guitar brand.  It helped guitarists distinguish between US and overseas made production.   Obviously, those early import models were inferior to the USA counterparts and to this day, not really sought out guitars to collectors/players.

So when Heritage created the Ascent line, only the discerning eye would know the difference between a USA made H150 and Chinese made H150.  Heritage brand has lost some of its luster or did it?

I think I unfairly compared Heritage to Gibson.  When in fact, I should have compared them to other companies like Gretsch, Fender, PRS, etc.

Fender for instance has not one, but three different countries making guitars with Fender on the headstock.  China, Japan, and Mexico.  Only when you look for the "Made In..." would you know where the model was produced.  Gretsch has done the same with China/Indonesia/Japan.  The same models in each brand could be made at any of these locations.  The appointments and quality vary from one manufacturing source to another, but for the untrained, a Fender is a Fender.  A Gretsch is a Gretsch.  

PRS at least called their guitars Student Editions or SE's of the same US Models, originally there were some glaring differences, but in later years, they are becoming harder to distinguish.

In my opinion, without physically picking up one, I think the quality of the guitars are okay.  The cheapest components are being used and the guitars are selling on a name brand that has really picked up considerably over the past few years.  I don't expect them to be huge sellers or find them in a store next to the USA variants anytime soon.

But.... If they decided to start using upgraded parts like Gibson does with their $1,000+ Epiphones, we may yet see them in a store near you.

In my opinion, I think Heritage should have used older, discontinued models for their import line.  H120 instead of H137 (H120 was a bolt on maple neck much like the Ascent H137) or use the H140 instead of the H150 (H140 has dot inlays on the fretboard much like the Ascent H150).  There might be a place for these guitars.  Not sure though.  Is this an experiment or a permanent thing?  

 

[Gitfiddler]

I've got no skin in the game, and respect Heritage for trying to reach the beginner or low income guitar buyer. 

My only issue is the bolt-on necks of some of the Heritage imports.  Sure its cheaper to build than a set neck, but it's a big turn-off, unless you're building a Strat or Tele type guitar.

To me that really cheapens the guitar and diminishes the brand. 

Edited October 31 by Gitfiddler

[Spectrum13]

23 minutes ago, DetroitBlues said:

 

So when Heritage created the Ascent line, only the discerning eye would know the difference between a USA made H150 and Chinese made H150.  

 

 

What of this discerning eye of which you speak?  Would not discerning hands and ears better judge? The Heritage brand was kept alive with Asian ownership and distribution through big box stores expanded the brands awareness big time.  Many of us replaced the "factory" parts supplied like bridges, tail pieces, pots and caps, tuners on the legacy instruments. 

"Branding" is a thing. I remember when Famous Amos made a great chocolate chip cookie. The brand was purchased in 1992 by president baking company after the 1985 sale to Bass Brothers. The "shelf stable" ingredients dropped the quality down to a chips ahoy level but one can still purchase a bag today. Not the same product that Marvin Gaye and Helen Ready invested in ....  As Peabody would say on fractured fairy tails, the moral of this story is " that is the way things are"   Happy Halloween to my on line family!  

[Heritage1970]

Everyone has their opinion on this and I respect that. My opinion though, is that the Heritage name should not be on anything except a guitar that's coming right out of Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA. If they wanted to do a cheaper, more affordable line, similar to Epiphone or something along those lines, that's fine, but they should have called it something else and not had the Heritage name on it at all. Again, just my opinion. I just don't like to see any kind of name that has a rich history tarnished all for the sake of money. I guess I'm a dreamer. In 2024 that's pretty much how things roll. Again though, just my opinion...

[Dick Seacup]

I will start by observing that there exists, in SE Asia, the ability to manufacture musical instruments to a very high quality. I am not at all espousing a "quality can only be found from American manufacturing" point of view.

There is a whole 'business' point of view that should be considered. The original vision of The Heritage guitars was pretty clear. Working instruments for working musicians, patterned after the much-loved originals, built in (what was left of) the original factory, under the guidance of some folks who were involved in the creation, build and sale of those much-loved originals. With the departure of the OG owners/founders of The Heritage, corporate interests have taken the helm. Corporate interests being what they are, profitability and growth become the core of, if not the whole "uber alles" mantra. Having personally espoused, for many years, that 'the only things in nature that experience non-stop growth are kudzu, bamboo and cancer,' I will refrain from expounding further on my thoughts thereof. Suffice to say, I think the current management has a different set of goals than the OG owners/founders did, and their marketing--which translates over to their production choices--reflects that. Nothing wrong with it, it's all just board room decisions and calculated risks. 

If it were a perfect reality, the OG owners/founders would have continued forever. They would have learned a couple things along the way, like maybe 'pay a little more attention to QC,' and The Heritage would exist in a perpetual Golden Age. But, we don't live in a perfect reality. Otherwise, I'd be typing this from a 60' Viking enclosed bridge anchored off the coast of some uninhabited atoll in the Caribbean. Instead, here I am in the vast wastelands of Michiganistan, questioning my life's decisions. 

The current stewards of the brand can make whatever decisions they like, and I wish them the best of luck. I'll stick to, ah, pre-loved Heritage guitars. 

 

 

Edited October 31 by Dick Seacup

[High Flying Bird]

My last trip to 225 Parsons was in 2016.  It was just after the sale of the company.  At the little lunch they put on for us I heard the new people speak and took them for chiselers.  I told one of our members that the brand was dead.  He thought I was crazy until a few months later when he called me and asked me how I knew so soon.

I got into Heritage guitars because of their hand built guitars, made by the good hearted people of Kalamazoo.  It means nothing to me when I hear about how good their guitars are now.  It is a different company.  Selling imports cheapens the brand.  Now I have to add, "This guitar was made before they sold the company." 

Say what you want -The Heritage died in 2016. 

[DetroitBlues]

14 hours ago, Spectrum13 said:

What of this discerning eye of which you speak?  Would not discerning hands and ears better judge? The Heritage brand was kept alive with Asian ownership and distribution through big box stores expanded the brands awareness big time.  Many of us replaced the "factory" parts supplied like bridges, tail pieces, pots and caps, tuners on the legacy instruments. 

"Branding" is a thing. I remember when Famous Amos made a great chocolate chip cookie. The brand was purchased in 1992 by president baking company after the 1985 sale to Bass Brothers. The "shelf stable" ingredients dropped the quality down to a chips ahoy level but one can still purchase a bag today. Not the same product that Marvin Gaye and Helen Ready invested in ....  As Peabody would say on fractured fairy tails, the moral of this story is " that is the way things are"   Happy Halloween to my on line family!  

Its not about judging, its about spotting the physical differences people who are familiar with the Heritage lineup to tell the difference between the USA and Chinese variant.

And yes, many of us, myself included have upgraded our Heritages.  Sometimes out of necessity, other time just because we can.  I can say of the four Heritages I own, only one needed modifications/upgrades.  The others do not.  My 140 had a bad Schaller tailpiece and pickups.  Had to replace them along with a new nut.  My 535 I decided to put more high gain friendly pickups over the Seth Lovers it came with (I kind of regret that one).  My H150 only had its control knobs changed with speed knobs because its easier to use when I'm at a gig for better feel.  My 137 is exactly the way it came four years ago.  My son has only added strap locks to his goldtop H150.

 

 

[DetroitBlues]

2 hours ago, High Flying Bird said:

My last trip to 225 Parsons was in 2016.  It was just after the sale of the company.  At the little lunch they put on for us I heard the new people speak and took them for chiselers.  I told one of our members that the brand was dead.  He thought I was crazy until a few months later when he called me and asked me how I knew so soon.

I got into Heritage guitars because of their hand built guitars, made by the good hearted people of Kalamazoo.  It means nothing to me when I hear about how good their guitars are now.  It is a different company.  Selling imports cheapens the brand.  Now I have to add, "This guitar was made before they sold the company." 

Say what you want -The Heritage died in 2016. 

Many have said the same thing and some will disagree.

[Spectrum13]

1 hour ago, DetroitBlues said:

Its not about judging, its about spotting the physical differences people who are familiar with the Heritage lineup to tell the difference between the USA and Chinese variant.

And yes, many of us, myself included have upgraded our Heritages.  Sometimes out of necessity, other time just because we can.  I can say of the four Heritages I own, only one needed modifications/upgrades.  The others do not.  My 140 had a bad Schaller tailpiece and pickups.  Had to replace them along with a new nut.  My 535 I decided to put more high gain friendly pickups over the Seth Lovers it came with (I kind of regret that one).  My H150 only had its control knobs changed with speed knobs because its easier to use when I'm at a gig for better feel.  My 137 is exactly the way it came four years ago.  My son has only added strap locks to his goldtop H150.

 

 

Josh,

 While my fingers were on the keyboard my tongue was against my cheek.  in 2024 i have all 6 of my Heritages. I would consider looking at an Ascent but only to compare against the original. 

[Spectrum13]

3 hours ago, High Flying Bird said:

My last trip to 225 Parsons was in 2016.  It was just after the sale of the company.  At the little lunch they put on for us I heard the new people speak and took them for chiselers.  I told one of our members that the brand was dead.  He thought I was crazy until a few months later when he called me and asked me how I knew so soon.

I got into Heritage guitars because of their hand built guitars, made by the good hearted people of Kalamazoo.  It means nothing to me when I hear about how good their guitars are now.  It is a different company.  Selling imports cheapens the brand.  Now I have to add, "This guitar was made before they sold the company." 

Say what you want -The Heritage died in 2016. 

That's why we can't buy a Chinese DeSoto, Packard or Pierce Arrow.

[kbp810]

4 hours ago, High Flying Bird said:

My last trip to 225 Parsons was in 2016.  It was just after the sale of the company.  At the little lunch they put on for us I heard the new people speak and took them for chiselers.  I told one of our members that the brand was dead.  He thought I was crazy until a few months later when he called me and asked me how I knew so soon.

I got into Heritage guitars because of their hand built guitars, made by the good hearted people of Kalamazoo.  It means nothing to me when I hear about how good their guitars are now.  It is a different company.  Selling imports cheapens the brand.  Now I have to add, "This guitar was made before they sold the company." 

Say what you want -The Heritage died in 2016. 

Agreed

Now... I do wish "Heritage" continued success and growth. I know they are making great guitars, expanding the name recognition, and doing what they feel they need to do to thrive in today's market... but that doesn't mean I have to accept that it's the same company with the same story that I fell in love with so many years ago. 

I used to have to often explain my Heritages to people; but I could do so with pride. Now that conversation becomes a little more drawn out; add in these cheap bolt-on reasonable facsimiles for "Heritages", and that conversation now starts to become quite pedantic. 

If they had only put "Ascent" or even "Heritage Ascent" on the headstock... something to differentiate it from the main brand... I feel like that would have been a little better. But since they didn't, it does, to me, feel like it dilutes the brand as a whole. 

Then again, it's not like my opinion means much to anyone, and I'm certainly not the target consumer for these. So I guess I just typed all that out simply to hear myself think out loud. 

 

[DetroitBlues]

On 11/1/2024 at 9:36 AM, Spectrum13 said:

Josh,

 While my fingers were on the keyboard my tongue was against my cheek.  in 2024 i have all 6 of my Heritages. I would consider looking at an Ascent but only to compare against the original. 

I'd do the same.  I wouldn't shy away from one, the whole point was misjudging the lineup or Heritage for doing this.

It would be fun to get one, upgrade it.  I'd probably use it for a travel or leave it at band practice guitar (drummer is divorced with a pair of unruly kids that lack of respect for other's belongings).  

Edited November 4 by DetroitBlues

[Heritage1970]

1 hour ago, kbp810 said:

Agreed

Now... I do wish "Heritage" continued success and growth. I know they are making great guitars, expanding the name recognition, and doing what they feel they need to do to thrive in today's market... but that doesn't mean I have to accept that it's the same company with the same story that I fell in love with so many years ago. 

I used to have to often explain my Heritages to people; but I could do so with pride. Now that conversation becomes a little more drawn out; add in these cheap bolt-on reasonable facsimiles for "Heritages", and that conversation now starts to become quite pedantic. 

If they had only put "Ascent" or even "Heritage Ascent" on the headstock... something to differentiate it from the main brand... I feel like that would have been a little better. But since they didn't, it does, to me, feel like it dilutes the brand as a whole. 

Then again, it's not like my opinion means much to anyone, and I'm certainly not the target consumer for these. So I guess I just typed all that out simply to hear myself think out loud. 

 

^^^ Yep- agree 100%.

[skydog52]

This was covered in June, Blues.

I bought a 137 and it was fine for what it is. Good set up out of the box and sounds good.

 

Edited November 1 by skydog52

[TalismanRich]

I liken the Ascent line as similar to the G&L Tribute line.   When first introduced,  the guitars were labeled as Tribute by G&L.   I think it limited the appeal of the guitars.   Later,  they changed to G&L  Tribute Series for the logo and I think it gave the junior line a boost.  

I think Heritage should have done some thing similar.  It would differentiate the guitars from the US line (although it easy enough to tell an Ascent by looking at the back of the headstock).  

I will say that my Tribute ASAT is an excellent guitar.   There's no reason an Ascent guitar can't be an excellent guitar as well.

 

As for the company dying in 2016,  I would rather have the company stay alive even if it means change.   I've got a guitar that was hand built by an outstanding luthier,  Gerard Melancon.   Unfortunately,  he developed cancer and passed away some years back.  The company died that day, no more Melancon guitars... 

JP has already passed,  Jim, Bill and Marv are no longer spring chickens (God love 'em) and deserve some rest.   Sometimes you just need to pass things along to the younger generation. 

[DetroitBlues]

On 11/1/2024 at 2:00 PM, skydog52 said:

This was covered in June, Blues.

I bought a 137 and it was fine for what it is. Good set up out of the box and sounds good.

 

Have you done anything with it?  Still stock?

[skydog52]

13 minutes ago, DetroitBlues said:

Have you done anything with it?  Still stock?

Still stock and still playing well. I won't touch it until a component goes bad. Time will tell.

Pickups have a nice P-90 sound.

Edited November 4 by skydog52

[DetroitBlues]

13 minutes ago, skydog52 said:

Still stock and still playing well. I won't touch it until a component goes bad. Time will tell.

Pickups have a nice P-90 sound.

Most important question (to me anyway)... How's the neck?

[TalismanRich]

I've been reading the thread on TGP about the Ascent guitars.    It's almost hilarious reading the condemnation of the wood, the bolt neck, etc.   At least a dozen of the posts were the of the "well, I'm not interested!" type.

DUH!    Anyone who thinks the Ascent line is aimed at Gear Page snobs is crazy.   These are people who will spend $100 on a pair of bumblebee caps or $200 on vintage aged pickguards and poker chips.   They aren't going to buy a $180 guitar.  

It's not aimed at ImABigStar on TGP who has 30 guitars,  a dozen Marshall stacks, two Klons and plays for his dog at night.

It's a guitar for little Timmy who's in 5th grade and wants to learn guitar.  Daddy will spend $180 for Christmas.   If little Timmy ends up learning to play, then maybe in 4 or 5 years he can get a real H150.

When I was 10,  you bought a crappy Sears Silvertone for $20 in the classifieds.   Then you might get a crappy Japanese made guitar at a pawn shop for $100.   Then, after several years you would move up to a used Fender for $200.   You didn't start out buying a $400 Gibson just to try to learn to play G C E... 1 2 3  G B F... 1 2 3.

[Spectrum13]

16 minutes ago, TalismanRich said:

 

16 minutes ago, TalismanRich said:

When I was 10,  you bought a crappy Sears Silvertone for $20 in the classifieds.   Then you might get a crappy Japanese made guitar at a pawn shop for $100.   Then, after several years you would move up to a used Fender for $200.   You didn't start out buying a $400 Gibson just to try to learn to play G C E... 1 2 3  G B F... 1 2 3.

Stop bragging, you grew up rich kid. I had to wait till I was 14 to get an old Harmony with a neck so bad it could not be played above the second fret. That Kent in a pawn show was my dream guitar. If I ever was able to get my hands on 30 bucks, I would beg for an extension cord and plug it direct into the wall socket. Took me till I was 20 before I got a 1961 Stratocaster for $65. 

[TalismanRich]

1 hour ago, Spectrum13 said:

 

Stop bragging, you grew up rich kid. I had to wait till I was 14 to get an old Harmony with a neck so bad it could not be played above the second fret. That Kent in a pawn show was my dream guitar. If I ever was able to get my hands on 30 bucks, I would beg for an extension cord and plug it direct into the wall socket. Took me till I was 20 before I got a 1961 Stratocaster for $65. 

How did you know that it was a Kent?  😁   It looked just like this one.

[big bob]

I can’t wait to get my new made in China American Eagle! 

[MartyGrass]

1 hour ago, big bob said:

I can’t wait to get my new made in China American Eagle! 

I recently saw a long documentary on the Challenger explosion.  That inspired this addition to the American Eagle pickguard.  I talked to Maudie Moore about a year before she died.  She told me how they decided to put this image on the pickguard very soon before a national guitar show in Chicago.

I think the symbol loses something if made in China.  The idea of the symbol was to show the perserverence of the American spirit despite tragic setbacks.  Wouldn't want to outsource that.

[Spectrum13]

10 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

How did you know that it was a Kent?  😁   It looked just like this one.

OMG  that's it!!!!!!!

[skydog52]

13 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

I've been reading the thread on TGP about the Ascent guitars.    It's almost hilarious reading the condemnation of the wood, the bolt neck, etc.   At least a dozen of the posts were the of the "well, I'm not interested!" type.

DUH!    Anyone who thinks the Ascent line is aimed at Gear Page snobs is crazy.   These are people who will spend $100 on a pair of bumblebee caps or $200 on vintage aged pickguards and poker chips.   They aren't going to buy a $180 guitar.  

It's not aimed at ImABigStar on TGP who has 30 guitars,  a dozen Marshall stacks, two Klons and plays for his dog at night.

It's a guitar for little Timmy who's in 5th grade and wants to learn guitar.  Daddy will spend $180 for Christmas.   If little Timmy ends up learning to play, then maybe in 4 or 5 years he can get a real H150.

When I was 10,  you bought a crappy Sears Silvertone for $20 in the classifieds.   Then you might get a crappy Japanese made guitar at a pawn shop for $100.   Then, after several years you would move up to a used Fender for $200.   You didn't start out buying a $400 Gibson just to try to learn to play G C E... 1 2 3  G B F... 1 2 3.

+1000  Rich gets it!