Heritage Mods?

[rockabilly69]

10 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

I don't doubt he says it's more resonant.   NOBODY is going to say that they went through all that effort and money and ruined their guitar's sound.   I have read hundreds of comments of people modding stuff, and it always turns out better... 100% of the time.  It never fails to make a massive improvement.  

Call me a skeptic.

 

You're basically saying my buddy is full of it, and equating him with so called internet modding experts. The guy I'm talking about is one of the finest players I know, and he is one of the best amp guys I know who's got a killer ear for tuning amps. If I was going to trust anybody's opinion on sound it would be his, not some internet expert. And BTW he didn't do it for a tone change, his guitars had overly thick finishes that he thought would feel better if they were thinned, and they guy that knocked them back did a great job and rebuffed them to a gloss. And as I said, the finish looked, and more importantly felt great when finished. The tone thing was just an added bonus that he wasn't expecting and he didn't say it was a massive improvement. 

 

10 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

I hate to say it, but nitro lacquer doesn't allow the wood to "breathe" (the wood is dead anyway..)  It's a myth the gets posted on the internet all the time.   It's just BS that people say to distinguish it from polyester or urethane coatings that are "plastic". 

If you're going to sand it down, you better have a good polishing wheel handy to buff it back, unless you want an "old looking" dull finish.   Just be careful that you don't sand  or buff through the whole finish.  

According to my dad,  I had an uncle who used to polish his black Oldsmobile every week back in the early 50s.   After a couple of years, he hit metal on a few spots!

I don't think you have enough practical experience to call this BS. Yes, wood doesn't breathe, but thinner finish can help the wood vibrate more (if the wood isn't just plain dead). On a good piece of wood, thick poly finishes dampen resonance. And many people that call this BS are playing with potted pickups that have zero ability to hear any difference in the improved resonance. I've done quite a few finish experiments. And I've stripped three different guitars of mine with poly finishes, and all three of them looked, felt, and sounded better than when I started. 

You can keep on believeing what you want about finishes, but I will believe what I've felt, seen, and heard. Gibson has sprayed too many guitars with thick overly plasticized lacquer, and many people I trust, who've thinned them, or better yet, refinned their guitars can hear a difference.

And another thing that distinquishes poly and urethane (and even overly plasticized nitro), from a properly shot thin nitro, is that it's way harder to repair finish flaws with poly/urethane/plasticizednitro. Certain finish repair people I know won't work on certain gibsons because of the plastizers That's another reason alot of us prefer a good thin nitro finish. 

[hopkinwfg]

8 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

As I understand, the nitro finish on most guitars is in the few thousandths of an inch... maybe 3 to 6 thou.   They aren't very thick.   I think polyester finishes can be 20-30 thou.

 

Thanks alot on the advise here... i certainly like to start slow and gently taking off some micro inches off the front sides back and neck first... it could be a rabbit hole whom am trying to yield... 

Have owned few of the very nice Jackson soloist and they were polyurethane finished all three sound relatively similar within their own make... 

The Gibsons on the other hand are more resonant (thats obvious) and within those R8 and R9 i own has the same openess resonant thick mids only my R8 sounded abit warmer darker than the R9 i got which i suspect of my 2008 R8 that has a madgascar rosewood due ... 

As comparison sets in here i dont know if the guys out here do experience the same tone adventure within the Heritage H150s to sound more or less similar on its resonance and tonality it produced when played acoustically ?

[hopkinwfg]

14 minutes ago, rockabilly69 said:

You're basically saying my buddy is full of it, and equating him with so called internet modding experts. The guy I'm talking about is one of the finest players I know, and he is one of the best amp guys I know who's got a killer ear for tuning amps. If I was going to trust anybody's opinion on sound it would be his, not some internet expert. And BTW he didn't do it for a tone change, his guitars had overly thick finishes that he thought would feel better if they were thinned, and they guy that knocked them back did a great job and rebuffed them to a gloss. And as I said, the finish looked, and more importantly felt great when finished. The tone thing was just an added bonus that he wasn't expecting and he didn't say it was a massive improvement. 

 

I don't think you have enough practical experience to call this BS. Yes, wood doesn't breathe, but thinner finish can help the wood vibrate more (if the wood isn't just plain dead). On a good piece of wood, thick poly finishes dampen resonance. And many people that call this BS are playing with potted pickups that have zero ability to hear any difference in the improved resonance. I've done quite a few finish experiments. And I've stripped three different guitars of mine with poly finishes, and all three of them looked, felt, and sounded better than when I started. 

You can keep on believeing what you want about finishes, but I will believe what I've felt, seen, and heard. Gibson has sprayed too many guitars with thick overly plasticized lacquer, and many people I trust, who've thinned them, or better yet, refinned their guitars can hear a difference.

And another thing that distinquishes poly and urethane (and even overly plasticized nitro), from a properly shot thin nitro, is that it's way harder to repair finish flaws with poly/urethane/plasticizednitro. Certain finish repair people I know won't work on certain gibsons because of the plastizers That's another reason alot of us prefer a good thin nitro finish. 

Thats true .... i was just about to tell here when i think of it about the stickier veil that layover a blank of resonant wood as it could have some dampening effect than a thinner non stickier veil covering over.... perhaps tone are a thing whom we cant pick up over a certain degree when played even over a period of time untill we capture its frequency peaks or record them up for a close side by side comparison...

[TalismanRich]

4 hours ago, rockabilly69 said:

You're basically saying my buddy is full of it, and equating him with so called internet modding experts. The guy I'm talking about is one of the finest players I know, and he is one of the best amp guys I know who's got a killer ear for tuning amps. If I was going to trust anybody's opinion on sound it would be his, not some internet expert. And BTW he didn't do it for a tone change, his guitars had overly thick finishes that he thought would feel better if they were thinned, and they guy that knocked them back did a great job and rebuffed them to a gloss. And as I said, the finish looked, and more importantly felt great when finished. The tone thing was just an added bonus that he wasn't expecting and he didn't say it was a massive improvement. 

I'm guessing that the change in feel wasn't so much a thickness issue, but a surface roughness change. Feeling a couple thousandths of a change in thickness would be impossible.   A change of several microns difference in surface roughness is detectable.   I worked with inks and coatings for 40 years and one of the measurements was surface roughness.  It affects gloss and abrasion.   Too smooth can feel sticky unless there is something to cause it to glide like an oil, wax or silicone.  

There are multiple instruments that will measure the film thickness in microns.   It would be a really simple way to test an instrument before and after attacking it with sandpaper.  Then measure the surface with a profilometer.   

 

While I didn't formulate any wood coatings,  I had friends that worked in labs of a few paint companies around here who did.   NC was on its way out for most purposes, but it is still used for certain coatings.   We still had 4 plants using it at one point.   It's excellent for certain packaging materials.

 

BTW,  I once formulated a really nice NC lacquer for the brass pans on my slot car chassis.  We were trying to make an overprint varnish (didn't work because of solvent restrictions).   We had a bunch of different grades of NC along with different plasticizers and compatible resins.   Besides keeping them nice and shiny,  it insulated so it couldn't spark if they hit the braids on the track.  As long as you didn't need to solder it back together it was great.   It was easily removed with a mix of acetone and alcohol. 

Edited November 26 by TalismanRich

[nuke]

Thin and properly applied poly doesn't sound much different than a properly applied nitrocellulose finish. The difference in finish is far, far more apparent on acoustic guitars where the body and especially the top play an enormous role in the sound of the guitar. 

The idea that "poly is bad" came the era when it was applied so thickly to guitars you could chip it off with a chisel and get 1/8" flakes of it coming off. 

Poly has a lot of advantages, the biggest is it doesn't take much time in the factory. Once it is cured, it is stable. Not to mention the solvents and worker exposure. Rickenbacker is using a UV-cured finish currently, very little solvent is used, and it cures in minutes upon exposure to UV light. For the owner, poly doesn't shink, doesn't react with stuff, isn't easily damaged by common chemicals, like alcohol or acetone, and it is quite easy to make minor finish repairs, as it sands and polishes easily. Harder to make deeper repairs, since it is insoluble once cured. 

All that being said, I like nitro a lot. It feels right and I like the way it sinks into the grain over time, especially on spruce top acoustic guitars. Nitro finishes are very repairable for the experienced luthier with the proper equipment since lacquer can be blended with fresh lacquer to make nearly invisible repairs. 

Then we can get into the merits of hand-applied varnish finishes...

[bolero]

I think the term "breathe" is probably used by gtr players to describe the sound and resonance qualities rather than actual air penetration.

I was being facetious with my oxygen mask comment earlier