Interested in a buying my first Heritage and have a few questions.

[JA2475]

Hi! I'm a new member and am interested in buying my first Heritage. Having owned guitars such as Gibson, Guild, Ibanez, Yamaha etc. I'm interested in a H-535 and looking to buy used. On other forums I have constantly read to buy a post 2017 guitar as they are better. So I decided to open an account here to speak to actual or current Heritage owners. Do Heritage owners agree with that? The ones I have found near me are 2012 and 2013.

Since I dislike slim necks I was told to stay away from the early ones. But how are the necks in 2012, 2013?

Any other details I should pay attention to when looking for an used H-535?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 01:08 PM by JA2475

[TalismanRich]

All earlier 535s don't necessarily have thin necks.   First,  since they were all hand carved,  there was some variation in the necks.  They had templates to check as they were working the neck, but they would vary.    My 535 neck (2005) is rounder and beefier than my 03 H157 or 87 H-140.   There's a slight difference in shape as well.    Second,  different people did the carving.   Marv could be different from Arnie.  

The guitars from the past few years have tended to be on the thicker side, but you'll still see a bit of variation between individual instruments.

If you have the opportunity to play the guitar first,  I would highly advise that.   Some people are very picky about the feel, others can play varying thicknesses, but shape makes a difference.   My Strat has a VERY thick neck,  my 140 is relatively thin.    Both are comfortable.    I've played several PRS guitars and I hated the shape.   They hit my thumb in a manner that was actually painful in  a short time.   I have a dislike of wide/flat necks.

Hardware can be changed if you want,  but the neck and body are pretty much set in stone.... er... wood.

 

[JA2475]

10 minutes ago, TalismanRich said:

All earlier 535s don't necessarily have thin necks.   First,  since they were all hand carved,  there was some variation in the necks.  They had templates to check as they were working the neck, but they would vary.    My 535 neck (2005) is rounder and beefier than my 03 H157 or 87 H-140.   There's a slight difference in shape as well.    Second,  different people did the carving.   Marv could be different from Arnie.  

The guitars from the past few years have tended to be on the thicker side, but you'll still see a bit of variation between individual instruments.

If you have the opportunity to play the guitar first,  I would highly advise that.   Some people are very picky about the feel, others can play varying thicknesses, but shape makes a difference.   My Strat has a VERY thick neck,  my 140 is relatively thin.    Both are comfortable.    I've played several PRS guitars and I hated the shape.   They hit my thumb in a manner that was actually painful in  a short time.   I have a dislike of wide/flat necks.

Hardware can be changed if you want,  but the neck and body are pretty much set in stone.... er... wood.

 

Unfortunately I don't have the opportunity to play it first. I would be relying on measurements and photos the seller send me. I saw a 2012 listed as having a 50s neck. Does that make sense? If so, it could probably be thick enough. I have to ask for measurements. 

What of the quality issues with pre 2017 guitars? Is it a myth or is there any truth to that?

I also noticed some have Grover closed tuners, others have tulip plastic buttons Kluson style tuners. Was that a customer choice or a model/trim difference? I've seen both in H535s of the same year.

Thanks.

Edited Wednesday at 10:23 PM by JA2475

[TalismanRich]

I think "50s" neck is meaningless.   It varied at Gibson from 52 to 59.   Every one was hand rolled and there were more than one person doing the work.   Generally 50s means thicker.   60s SGs had thinner necks than 59 LPs.  I certainly haven't played enough old Gibsons to say they are all the same, but the ones I've played varied.

As for quality issues,   I have 5 Heritage guitars from an 87 to 08.   The only thing I have really done as a "repair" was changing the pickups in my H140 (it was used and one of the pickups was really screwed up).     I put Sheptones in my 535, but just to try them.   They sound different from the stock Schallers.   I also changed the pots and caps in my 157 to see if there was any improvement.   I can't say it was better.   The Vishay Poly caps are good, so I don't think the oil filled caps improved anything.

One advantage of the later models is the use of SD59s in place of the Schaller pickups.   People used to pull the Schallers and put in new pickups, often SD59s or Seth Lovers.   Now they pull the SDs and put in something else.   On a Semi, that's a harder task than on a solid body with an access panel for the controls.   Some people don't like the Schaller bridge and tailpiece.  They change them to ABR or Nashville types, which are usually lighter.   My 535 already came that way, so not all have the Schaller hardware.  

A couple of the Grovers on my 535 were getting tight, so last year,  I changed to locking Grovers, and used keystone buttons instead of kidney beans.   Strictly a choice.   Normal factory is Grovers with kidney beans.   They can be replaced in about an hour for under $100 if you want.   You can see how they look in this thread.

 

[bolero]

Good advice from TR above

I'll add I had a 90s 535 & sold it because the neck was too slim for me.

I replaced it with a 2013 or 2015 H-535 & it is the bomb!! Amazing gtr, nice beefy neck but not a baseball bat. 

I also put Wolfetone Legend pickups in

 

Gratuitous pic

 

 

And a shoutout to Bill Paige: it never had a pickguard installed; one year at the factory I asked if I could buy one, he walked back into the shop retreived one & gave it to me. So thank you Bill!

Edited Thursday at 04:11 AM by bolero
Thanks Bill!

[TalismanRich]

Bolero's looks very much like mine, which is a 2005.  This has the Sheptone Tribute pickups, otherwise it's stock.

[bolero]

That's nice!

Sheptone's are great pickups too, I have a set in a HB firebird.

I just checked my serial # is ABxxx which is 2013 I believe

Edited Thursday at 04:45 AM by bolero
HB

[bolero]

And FWIW I played a new H535 in the showroom at the factory and it was outstanding too.

[JA2475]

5 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

I think "50s" neck is meaningless.   It varied at Gibson from 52 to 59.   Every one was hand rolled and there were more than one person doing the work.   Generally 50s means thicker.   60s SGs had thinner necks than 59 LPs.  I certainly haven't played enough old Gibsons to say they are all the same, but the ones I've played varied.

As for quality issues,   I have 5 Heritage guitars from an 87 to 08.   The only thing I have really done as a "repair" was changing the pickups in my H140 (it was used and one of the pickups was really screwed up).     I put Sheptones in my 535, but just to try them.   They sound different from the stock Schallers.   I also changed the pots and caps in my 157 to see if there was any improvement.   I can't say it was better.   The Vishay Poly caps are good, so I don't think the oil filled caps improved anything.

One advantage of the later models is the use of SD59s in place of the Schaller pickups.   People used to pull the Schallers and put in new pickups, often SD59s or Seth Lovers.   Now they pull the SDs and put in something else.   On a Semi, that's a harder task than on a solid body with an access panel for the controls.   Some people don't like the Schaller bridge and tailpiece.  They change them to ABR or Nashville types, which are usually lighter.   My 535 already came that way, so not all have the Schaller hardware.  

A couple of the Grovers on my 535 were getting tight, so last year,  I changed to locking Grovers, and used keystone buttons instead of kidney beans.   Strictly a choice.   Normal factory is Grovers with kidney beans.   They can be replaced in about an hour for under $100 if you want.   You can see how they look in this thread.

 

Makes sense. I think even today the necks at Heritage are still hand carved? I heard the whole process is not as handmade as it used to be? But maybe necks are still handmade.  But even with hand carved necks, if the goal is to make them more towards chunky or more towards slim, there will still be a "standard" of sorts? As long as the necks are not aimed to be 60s thin, I can normally get along. But I guess asking for measurements when buying online is the only guideline if you can't try it first.

The examples I'm looking at, a 2012 and 2013 both have 59s and one is a 2022 so has Seths. They are all priced the same and some have told me to go for the newer one if the prices are the same. Because of the enduring notion that the post 2017 guitars are better made. But I like the color of the 2012 and 2013 so much more.

For the tuners, so the Grover kidney beans are the standard? Both the 2012 and 2013 has Kluson style (2 screws) with plastic tulip buttons. I have also see at least another ton youtube:

 

So this is a later mod by the owner?  

 

By the way, I have seen some examples which have only 3 knobs. But has a roll of 3 switches, plus the usual 3-way pick up switch. Was this custom, an option or a model?

 

Edited Thursday at 07:53 AM by JA2475

[JA2475]

3 hours ago, bolero said:

Good advice from TR above

I'll add I had a 90s 535 & sold it because the neck was too slim for me.

I replaced it with a 2013 or 2015 H-535 & it is the bomb!! Amazing gtr, nice beefy neck but not a baseball bat. 

I also put Wolfetone Legend pickups in

 

Gratuitous pic

 

 

And a shoutout to Bill Paige: it never had a pickguard installed; one year at the factory I asked if I could buy one, he walked back into the shop retreived one & gave it to me. So thank you Bill!

That is what I call customer service!  It's a totally different thing when you are not dealing with a huge corporation. I guess a little of that charm has been lost with modern Heritage. But then again it was probably necessary, with the original owners getting into more advanced age. Better than closing down I guess. I would hope the new owners would keep some of that feeling. But with a big corporation it's always harder.

Your guitar is a beauty! 😍 Would you have any measurements of your 2013's neck? The 2022 I'm looking at seems to have a very thick neck. Almost too thick.

[JA2475]

3 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

Bolero's looks very much like mine, which is a 2005.  This has the Sheptone Tribute pickups, otherwise it's stock.

Nice! 😍

[bolero]

Ok I'll look for some calipers

[JA2475]

4 hours ago, bolero said:

Ok I'll look for some calipers

Thank you very much!

[TalismanRich]

9 hours ago, JA2475 said:

By the way, I have seen some examples which have only 3 knobs. But has a roll of 3 switches, plus the usual 3-way pick up switch. Was this custom, an option or a model?

 

Many years ago,  custom options were almost the norm.   The guys would work with people to build guitars that are much different from the standard line.   Pressure has several custom made guitars.  He likes spruce, so he has a unique Millennium with a spruce top.     Heritage had a system called the VIP (Var-I-Phase) and D-VIP.   The switches could implement a coil tap,  and phase reversal.   The 3 knob, 3 switch is a D-VIP. You have master volume and master tone,  and the third knob would vary the blending of the phase of the pickups depending on the switches.

I would probably go with the 22, as I like Seth Lovers, unless it was a color I didn't like.   My favorite is obviously the red,  followed by natural, then sunburst.  

They now use  Heritage branded tuners, with kidney beans.    I don't know who is making the tuners, but I'm guessing that Edwin Wilson probably chose a manufacturer and had the branding set up.   It's not an unusual thing to do.   Just call Gotoh, Grover,  Guyker,  Wilkinson, etc and tell them you want 1000 sets, and they'll happily give you a price.

Many people change the tuners.    It's not difficult, as long as you check the dimensions.  

Edited Thursday at 04:58 PM by TalismanRich

[JA2475]

10 minutes ago, TalismanRich said:

Many years ago,  custom options were almost the norm.   The guys would work with people to build guitars that are much different from the standard line.   Pressure has several custom made guitars.  He likes spruce, so he has a unique Millennium with a spruce top.     Heritage had a system called the VIP (Var-I-Phase) and D-VIP.   The switches could implement a coil tap,  and phase reversal.   The 3 knob, 3 switch is a D-VIP. You have master volume and master tone,  and the third knob would vary the blending of the phase of the pickups depending on the switches.

I would probably go with the 22, as I like Seth Lovers, unless it was a color I didn't like.   My favorite is obviously the red,  followed by natural, then sunburst.  

They now use  Heritage branded tuners, with kidney beans.    I don't know who is making the tuners, but I'm guessing that Edwin Wilson probably chose a manufacturer and had the branding set up.   It's not an unusual thing to do.   Just call Gotoh, Grover,  Guyker,  Wilkinson, etc and tell them you want 1000 sets, and they'll happily give you a price.

Many people change the tuners.    It's not difficult, as long as you check the dimensions.  

D-VIP sounds interesting.  When did they stop with that?

I just found a 2009 as well. The 2013 and 2009 are in the color I want. Which is almond burst it seems. The 2022 is in a color I don't want, because I have already 3 other guitars in that color. The pickups can be easily changed if I think I don't like the SD 59s. So the only reason to get the 2022 is if they are indeed much better made than a 2013 or 2009? The 2009 is actually Seth Lovers.

[bolero]

With the strings on I get ( inches )

0.962 at 1st fret

1.091 at 12th fret

That includes the fret & the strings though. Was a hassle to get under the strings

Edited Thursday at 06:11 PM by bolero
frets & strings

[TalismanRich]

MIne is .88 at 1st and 1.03 at 12th.

Bolero,  the trick is to have a small piece of wood or plastic that is thicker than the strings, and fits between the and stringsfrets.    Measure that, and subtract from the total.   I have a small piece of wood that is 2.1mm.    So I measure 24.40mm and get 22.30 which is 0.878 inches for the neck.

For me, shape is as important, or more, than the total thickness.

[pressure]

2 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

Pressure has several custom made guitars.  He likes spruce, so he has a unique Millennium with a spruce top.  

I have 2 Heritage Millennium's with spruce tops. I also have a Heritage Prospect, 2 Heritage Johnny Smith's all with spruce tops and a Heritage 170 with a spruce back. It gets worse, my Fender Custom Shop Stratocaster has a spruce body. I also had a Hammer Newport 90 that had a spruce top (Fab guitar). I might have forgot some but you get the idea. Good times.

[MichaelThorn]

14 hours ago, JA2475 said:

Makes sense. I think even today the necks at Heritage are still hand carved? I heard the whole process is not as handmade as it used to be? But maybe necks are still handmade.  But even with hand carved necks, if the goal is to make them more towards chunky or more towards slim, there will still be a "standard" of sorts? As long as the necks are not aimed to be 60s thin, I can normally get along. But I guess asking for measurements when buying online is the only guideline if you can't try it first.

The examples I'm looking at, a 2012 and 2013 both have 59s and one is a 2022 so has Seths. They are all priced the same and some have told me to go for the newer one if the prices are the same. Because of the enduring notion that the post 2017 guitars are better made. But I like the color of the 2012 and 2013 so much more.

For the tuners, so the Grover kidney beans are the standard? Both the 2012 and 2013 has Kluson style (2 screws) with plastic tulip buttons. I have also see at least another ton youtube:

 

So this is a later mod by the owner?  

 

By the way, I have seen some examples which have only 3 knobs. But has a roll of 3 switches, plus the usual 3-way pick up switch. Was this custom, an option or a model?

 

QC is much better with the "new" management / owners from what I've heard. I understand that it got pretty hairy toward the end of the last regime. But many here knew the "old" guys and felt a connection with the company and they wanted guitars their friends made. I personally didn't know any of them. From what I understand it was kind of hit and miss QC wise like Gibson in the late '70s into the '80s. I bought a 535 here from a guy who goes by Holyroller. I bought it just to help him out when he was selling several guitars for reasons I don't remember. I told him I'd hold it for a year if he wanted it back and didn't play it during that period. I never heard back from him so it became mine. I believe it is a 2002 and everyone I show it to says it's just a "hoot" to play. I judge playability for all my guitars by this example of 535, even my Hamers which most Heritages I've played don't compare to. But, I haven't played any of the newer ones. IMFO you are better off with the newer, post 2016. I had one model solid body that after the 15th fret the fretboard took a deep dive. I mean it was a ski slope. Not sure if it was intentional but the action was about 1/4 inch off the fretboard when it was fairly normal further up. Upon examination with a straightedge it was off the chart. Another had a few side inlays that were just messed up. Craftsmanship was hit and miss. Just weird stuff. Plecking and fret leveling were the norm with the older ones. One dealer I know told me the new owners fixed all that and he says he doesn't need to pleck them from the factory anymore. They used to use Seymour Duncans in the past. The newer ones are either rebranded or maybe they finally got their own winder. As always, YMMV.

[MichaelThorn]

3 hours ago, pressure said:

I have 2 Heritage Millennium's with spruce tops. I also have a Heritage Prospect, 2 Heritage Johnny Smith's all with spruce tops and a Heritage 170 with a spruce back. It gets worse, my Fender Custom Shop Stratocaster has a spruce body. I also had a Hammer Newport 90 that had a spruce top (Fab guitar). I might have forgot some but you get the idea. Good times.

That Newport Spruce is an awesome guitar. I've played a few.

[bolero]

4 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

MIne is .88 at 1st and 1.03 at 12th.

Bolero,  the trick is to have a small piece of wood or plastic that is thicker than the strings, and fits between the and stringsfrets.    Measure that, and subtract from the total.   I have a small piece of wood that is 2.1mm.    So I measure 24.40mm and get 22.30 which is 0.878 inches for the neck.

For me, shape is as important, or more, than the total thickness.

Hey that's a good idea! I'll get some popsicle sticks & remeasure

[JA2475]

6 hours ago, bolero said:

With the strings on I get ( inches )

0.962 at 1st fret

1.091 at 12th fret

That includes the fret & the strings though. Was a hassle to get under the strings

Thanks! That is useful to know.

[JA2475]

5 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

MIne is .88 at 1st and 1.03 at 12th.

Bolero,  the trick is to have a small piece of wood or plastic that is thicker than the strings, and fits between the and stringsfrets.    Measure that, and subtract from the total.   I have a small piece of wood that is 2.1mm.    So I measure 24.40mm and get 22.30 which is 0.878 inches for the neck.

For me, shape is as important, or more, than the total thickness.

Thank you as well!

[bolero]

Allright:

Shims measured: 0.147 thick

1.045 @ 1st fret = 0.898"

1.163 @ 12th  fret = 1.016"

 

[JA2475]

1 hour ago, MichaelThorn said:

QC is much better with the "new" management / owners from what I've heard. I understand that it got pretty hairy toward the end of the last regime. But many here knew the "old" guys and felt a connection with the company and they wanted guitars their friends made. I personally didn't know any of them. From what I understand it was kind of hit and miss QC wise like Gibson in the late '70s into the '80s. I bought a 535 here from a guy who goes by Holyroller. I bought it just to help him out when he was selling several guitars for reasons I don't remember. I told him I'd hold it for a year if he wanted it back and didn't play it during that period. I never heard back from him so it became mine. I believe it is a 2002 and everyone I show it to says it's just a "hoot" to play. I judge playability for all my guitars by this example of 535, even my Hamers which most Heritages I've played don't compare to. But, I haven't played any of the newer ones. IMFO you are better off with the newer, post 2016. I had one model solid body that after the 15th fret the fretboard took a deep dive. I mean it was a ski slope. Not sure if it was intentional but the action was about 1/4 inch off the fretboard when it was fairly normal further up. Upon examination with a straightedge it was off the chart. Another had a few side inlays that were just messed up. Craftsmanship was hit and miss. Just weird stuff. Plecking and fret leveling were the norm with the older ones. One dealer I know told me the new owners fixed all that and he says he doesn't need to pleck them from the factory anymore. They used to use Seymour Duncans in the past. The newer ones are either rebranded or maybe they finally got their own winder. As always, YMMV.

Wow, that is pretty worrying. Giving that I'm looking at a 2013. That is pretty close to the end of the old regime. For the fret leveling and pleking, I guess by now it would have already been done. The "ski slope", well, that is bad. :(

When did they stop making the almond burst? It doesn't seem to be available in the new ones. And used 2020s I mainly see red and sunburst.