seth lovers

[martintj]

Can anyone describe the differences between HRW pickups and Seth Lovers?What are the characteristics of each of these pickups and who prefers Seths.I play a H535.

[SouthpawGuy]

Hi martintj ...

 

I have the Seths in my Prospect and also in a couple of G&L Bluesboys. I have the HRWs in a couple of Heritages, a Millie and a VIP 2.

 

The difference between them is like night and day. I find the HRWs to have a lot more output that the Seths with a very bright, punchy and articulate tone. The Seths, to my ears anyway, work better for classic rock and blues tones, jazz also. They don't push the front of the amp as much as the HRWs.

 

The HRWs are very good for hard rock, almost metal tones, and in single coil mode have a nice cut to them.

 

I play a lot of the time with no pick, and even when I do use a pick I use a lot of hybrid picking, i.e. I use my fingers as well . I also use a straight clean tone a lot, that is just a guitar straight into an amp. I currently use a Blues Jnr, Vox AC30CCII, Cube 30x and a Cyber Twin. The HRWs overdrive the front of the amps way to soon for my taste, the Seths don't.The Seths just seem to me to suit my way of doing things.

 

 

Just my 2 cents as they say, I'm sure others will have their own experiences / opinions !

[Hfan]

I have the Seth Lovers in my 575 Custom. As Southpaw Guy said they work great for Blues and Jazz type tones. I also usually play with no pedals straight into the amp and often play finger style as well. I can't speak for the HRW's, never tried them, but I really like the Seth Lovers.

[Paul P]

The difference between them is like night and day. I find the HRWs to have a lot more output that the Seths with a very bright, punchy and articulate tone. The Seths, to my ears anyway, work better for classic rock and blues tones, jazz also. They don't push the front of the amp as much as the HRWs.

 

What difference remains if you turn down the volume and treble a bit on the HRWs to bring them

in line with the Seths ?  I never play with the guitar volume maxed out so to me it may not matter

what the maximum output of a pickup is, unless there was a huge difference.

[SouthpawGuy]

What difference remains if you turn down the volume and treble a bit on the HRWs to bring them

in line with the Seths ?  I never play with the guitar volume maxed out so to me it may not matter

what the maximum output of a pickup is, unless there was a huge difference.

 

I'm left handed so if a guitar is not wired left handed with true lefty pots the volumes and tones have a very small sweep.

That is all of the volume increase happens between 9 to 10, with very little if any difference before that, same for the tone controls.

 

Very few lefty guitars, including Heritage and G&L, are actually wired in "true" left handed fashion. Some are wired right handed on a lefty guitar using  righty pots. Others are wired left handed using right handed pots. Still more are wired lefty using left handed pots. And all of that still doesn't take into consideration the fact that the knobs might still be numbered right handed on an otherwise lefty friendly left handed guitar ! So I generally don't use the controls on the guitar too much, I usually leave everthing on full.

 

My own simple cure for the HRWs being too hot for my taste was to reduce their height away from the strings, those on the VIP 2 are now below the top of the pickup rings.

[GuitArtMan]

I would have to echo what SouthpayGuy said.  I used to own both a H-535 with Seth Lovers and a H-535 with HRWs.  I found the HRWs to have higher output than the Seths and to be bright and punchy and HiFi sounding.  I found myself always having to turn them down to keep from slamming the front end of my amp with too much signal and getting overdrive/distortion when I didn't want to.  I'm not saying they are a heavy metal pickup, but the had to much PUSH for me.  The Seths to  me are a perfect match for a semi-hollow body guitar.  They have the right amount of warmth, clarity and output to work in a variety of "classic"/"traditional" situations; classic rock, blues, jazz, even county can be had from the Seths.  Heavy metal guys need to look elsewhere. 

[yoslate]

My $.02....  A purely anecdotal observation:  Bought a pair of Seths from Kuz and had them installed in my wonderful old LP.  Just what I was looking for!  Much lower output than the Dimarzios I had in there.  Played it out for the first time a couple of weeks ago.  Guy I play with a bunch remarked that, at the neck pickup, it sounded just like a hollowbody.  I have dropped both p'ups down a bit from where Tom had them at installation, a height he said was probably as high as they ought to go.  I guess that means I'm relying more on the inherent qualities of the amps I use, too.  As I get older (sheesh, here it comes again) I find I'm trying to play less (in soloing), more quietly, and with a "sweeter" tone than I've used in the past.  That's one of the reasons I enjoy my hollowbodies (576 and a Super Eagle) so much.

[gopeteygo]

I replaced a pair of Schallers in my 535 with Seths and a Jazz/'59 combo in my 150 and am very happy with the results.  The 150 in particular seems a perfect fit for the Seth Lovers.

[Kuz]

Well, as usual I will buck the trend.

 

I had a 555 with HRWs and a 555 with Seths.

 

HRWs = more output yes, but not more output as in metal playing. They were much more rounder than the Seths with less piercing highs. If you go to Heritages web site you will see that Vince Lewis, Kenny Burrell, and many other Jazz cats are using them. They still have all the clarity of the Seths but with more mids and a rounder tone. I would say they sound like degassed A5 magnets so you don't have the grit of A2 magnets (like the Seths have). I found the HRWs creamier. I think HRWs sound like Lollar Imperials (without the price)

 

Seth = more A2 highend clarity and gritty break up. Much more cut through highs, less rounder, and much less crieamier. More p-90, gritty, ratty sounding.

 

So....

If you want a rounder tone with creamier breakup or a greater spectrum (more mids & lows) for say Jazz or blues go for the HRWs.

If you want cut through the mix at all costs, lower powered clear PAFs then go for the Seths.

 

I for one liked the creamier, sweeter, and the greater tone palet of the HRWs. (Your opinion my vary)

[martintj]

  Thanks for all of these informative responses to my question regarding seth lovers I know this information helps many players.

[dblazer]

I don't know about the HRWs, but the Seths, which I have in my H-140 sound more like actual '59 pickups than anything else I've heard. My buddy who has the '59 dot neck ES-335 Gibson agrees. Very similar overall.

 

So if you're looking for that "old time religion", they're it.

[High Flying Bird]

I have Seth's in my 150.  I like them.  I have Schallers in my 535.  I like them too.  I don't like the '59s as they are so dark.  I hope to have a guitar with HRW's in it soon.  :wink:

 

I think the Schaller's are the best bet as they are very clean and your amp can do the work to overdrive them not the other way around.

[fxdx99]

As good a description I've read on tone, Kuz - hard to put into words, but you've captured it pretty well.  I'm a big fan of Seths and pretty much for the reasons that you've stated...  lower powered gritty ratty sounding.  Yeh, that's my 535 and it is a perfect guitar for the blues-like material.  Have not had HRWs, so can't comment on them, but I really like the Seths.  Didn't care for the schallers they replaced... they were much cleaner and my fingers kept wanting to play johnny cash stuff when I picked up the guitar...  it was a battle when I was supposed to be playing t-bone walker.  8)

 

You also have Throbaks and like them...  how do you compare the throbaks to the seths/hrws?

[Kuz]

As good a description I've read on tone, Kuz - hard to put into words, but you've captured it pretty well.  I'm a big fan of Seths and pretty much for the reasons that you've stated...  lower powered gritty ratty sounding.  Yeh, that's my 535 and it is a perfect guitar for the blues-like material.  Have not had HRWs, so can't comment on them, but I really like the Seths.  Didn't care for the schallers they replaced... they were much cleaner and my fingers kept wanting to play johnny cash stuff when I picked up the guitar...  it was a battle when I was supposed to be playing t-bone walker.   8)

 

You also have Throbaks and like them...  how do you compare the throbaks to the seths/hrws?

 

I since I have the p-90 sound in the other guitars I wanted more bass & mids without being muddy. More sweetness & creaminess. So Jon suggested the Peter Green degassed A5 pickups without the magnet flip. I was intending to putt them in my 555 that had the Seths, but since I would have to have a Luthier do that, I put the PG Throbaks in my 150GT that had Lollar Imperials in it. I was so blown away I ordered another set of PG Throbaks with the magnet flip for "Greeny". SO... now the 555 that originaly had the Seths has the Lollar Imperials (degassed A5 as well) in it.

 

The long term plan is to take the PG Throbaks without the flip out of the 150GT, put them in the 555, sell the Lollar imperials, and get a set of Throbaks (probably his PAF clone A2) in the 150GT.

 

So yea, Throbaks are THAT good!

[PAG]

I have both Seth Lovers (in my Roy Clark) and HRW's in my H-140. I agree the Seths have definitely lot more treble than HRW's . Both pups are P.A.F type pickups with great clear and overdrived sound. The big difference is that Seth Lovers are not wax potted pups, so have a more microfonic quality than HRW's. For more drive I wouldn't recomed the Seth Lovers. I love them both...

[GuitArtMan]

Well, as usual I will buck the trend.

 

I had a 555 with HRWs and a 555 with Seths.

 

HRWs = more output yes, but not more output as in metal playing. They were much more rounder than the Seths with less piercing highs. If you go to Heritages web site you will see that Vince Lewis, Kenny Burrell, and many other Jazz cats are using them. They still have all the clarity of the Seths but with more mids and a rounder tone. I would say they sound like degassed A5 magnets so you don't have the grit of A2 magnets (like the Seths have). I found the HRWs creamier. I think HRWs sound like Lollar Imperials (without the price)

 

Seth = more A2 highend clarity and gritty break up. Much more cut through highs, less rounder, and much less crieamier. More p-90, gritty, ratty sounding.

 

So....

If you want a rounder tone with creamier breakup or a greater spectrum (more mids & lows) for say Jazz or blues go for the HRWs.

If you want cut through the mix at all costs, lower powered clear PAFs then go for the Seths.

 

I for one liked the creamier, sweeter, and the greater tone palet of the HRWs. (Your opinion my vary)

I think you have that backwards:

Alnico 5:  bright, pucnhy, sharp attack

Alnico 2: sweet, clear, softer attack

 

Seymour Duncan (he ought to know pickups) makes his Alnico Five-Two set.  The Alnico 5 is under the wound strings for punch and attack, the Alnico 2 is under the plain strings for sweetness.  From the Duncan website:

Alnico 2 magnets provide warmth and softer attack on the three high strings. Alnico 5 magnets provide punch and brightness on the low strings. It's like having two separate presence controls: one optimized for the high strings and one for the low strings. The result is a very balanced pickup with a bright and springy bottom end, and a smooth and rich top end. Includes white cover.

 

The Jazz cats you mentioned are probably all playing high headroom, full range amps that frankly can handle the punch of the HRWs.  I personally find the amps I play (Dr. Z Carmen Ghia, Marshall '69 50 watt, Fender Super Reverb, Fender Pro Reverb) were getting hit to hard by them.

[Kuz]

No, I was referring to the comparison of Degassed (lower powered A5s) vs full powered A2s (as in the Seths).

 

Both Jason Lollar & Jon Gundry (Throbak) said if you don't want the bight & highend of the full powered A2s as in the Seths go with a lower powered A5 (degassed) that gives more of an higher output warmth & cream but has the less output like a PAF.

 

I talked to them directly and they nailed the tone I wanted. I have owned 4 pairs of Lollar Imperials, 2 pairs of HRWs, 2 pairs of Seths, and 2 pairs of Throbaks. I feel I can speak from these pups experiences.

 

But comparing a full powered A2 (Seths) vs full powered A5s (dimarzios, ect) I don't know because I only use underpowered PAF style pups.

 

I spoke with Jon & Jason directly and they nailed the tone for me, so I would suggest that others pick up the phone and do the same.

 

Good luck,

 

John

[GuitArtMan]

No, I was referring to the comparison of Degassed (lower powered A5s) vs full powered A2s (as in the Seths).

 

Both Jason Lollar & Jon Gundry (Throbak) said if you don't want the bight & highend of the full powered A2s as in the Seths go with a lower powered A5 (degassed) that gives more of an higher output warmth & cream but has the less output like a PAF.

 

I talked to them directly and they nailed the tone I wanted. I have owned 4 pairs of Lollar Imperials, 2 pairs of HRWs, 2 pairs of Seths, and 2 pairs of Throbaks. I feel I can speak from these pups experiences.

 

But comparing a full powered A2 (Seths) vs full powered A5s (dimarzios, ect) I don't know because I only use underpowered PAF style pups.

 

I spoke with Jon & Jason directly and they nailed the tone for me, so I would suggest that others pick up the phone and do the same.

 

Good luck,

 

John

OK, I don't know about Degassed Alnico 5 - I only know the guy behind me at work degasses all day long and it frickin' reeks!!!  We've nicknamed him "The Reeker" - no joke, and even rewrote the lyrics to "Don't fear the Reeper" to be "Don't fear the Reeker". 

 

OK, back on subject.  I can say I have compared Alnico 5 and Alnico 2 magnets in an otherwise identical pickup - The Musicians Enemy, er Musicians Friend 50th Anniversary humbucker which was essentially a Seth Lover with a custom (50th anniversary) cover. I assume both sets had full strength magnets.  The Alnico 5 were definitely brighter and punchier and frankly somewhat harsh sounding compared to the sweet clear tone of the Alnico 2s.

[brentrocks]

The Alnico 5 were definitely brighter and punchier and frankly somewhat harsh sounding compared to the sweet clear tone of the Alnico 2s.

 

i love the Alnico IIs in my Gary Moore....perfect match for that guitar

[Kuz]

I just degassed a little on the couch. It was warm and creamy, with plenty of low end. Even left a mark while I was typing this

 

Seriously though, the boutique guys are able to do so much with different magnets, magnet orientation, diameter of the wire, ect. I think it is almost impossible to compare and contrast the differences of tone. I think Guitartman has nailed the generalities, but so many more options exhist nowadays.

 

One thing I have found that I don't really care for (unless you want to tame the highs) is potted pups. The HRWs (which I didn't know where potted) are really the only potted pup that retains it's highend tones, to my ears anyhow.

 

Throbak doesn't pot his pups and I really can hear some more overtones out of his pups.

 

Yet the unpotted are prone to quicker uncontrolled feedback (if high gain is your thing)

[JeffB]

More and more I like the seth's in my H150 and less and less I like other potted p/ups.

I don't know how much gain is to much for the seth's before the start squealing as I haven't encountered it yet.

We do have what I consider high gain songs in our set lists and maybe the Seth's are not tonally right or the best p/up for that sort of music but I haven't had any bother with squealing yet.

[Spectrum13]

Please explain this degassing thing...

 

  If the grail tones from the 59 bursts were recorded in 1965 by Mike Bloomfield 1966 by Eric Clapton & Bluesbreakers 1968? with Peter Green on Hardroad...

 

These pickups were only six to nine years old when the records were made so if you have Seths installed on a 2002  150, would not the A2's be as degassed in 2009 as a PAF 59 was is 1966?

 

I don't get it. Did the laws of physics changes in the last 50 years?

[Kuz]

Please explain this degassing thing...

 

  If the grail tones from the 59 bursts were recorded in 1965 by Mike Bloomfield 1966 by Eric Clapton & Bluesbreakers 1968? with Peter Green on Hardroad...

 

These pickups were only six to nine years old when the records were made so if you have Seths installed on a 2002  150, would not the A2's be as degassed in 2009 as a PAF 59 was is 1966?

 

I don't get it. Did the laws of physics changes in the last 50 years?

[GuitArtMan]

Please explain this degassing thing...

 

  If the grail tones from the 59 bursts were recorded in 1965 by Mike Bloomfield 1966 by Eric Clapton & Bluesbreakers 1968? with Peter Green on Hardroad...

 

These pickups were only six to nine years old when the records were made so if you have Seths installed on a 2002  150, would not the A2's be as degassed in 2009 as a PAF 59 was is 1966?

 

I don't get it. Did the laws of physics changes in the last 50 years?

Yep.  The vintage stuff wasn't vintage when the tones we all admire and crave and want were recorded.  The stuff was new.

[Kuz]

Please explain this degassing thing...

 

  If the grail tones from the 59 bursts were recorded in 1965 by Mike Bloomfield 1966 by Eric Clapton & Bluesbreakers 1968? with Peter Green on Hardroad...

 

These pickups were only six to nine years old when the records were made so if you have Seths installed on a 2002  150, would not the A2's be as degassed in 2009 as a PAF 59 was is 1966?

 

I don't get it. Did the laws of physics changes in the last 50 years?

 

Someone needs to call Jason Lollar or Jon Gundry (throbak) to get the scientific answer.

 

All I can say is I wanted a rounder, creamier, pup with more bass & mids, but not more output. They both suggested degassed A5s. In fact Lollar uses degassed A5s as his PAF clone = Lollar Imperials, but for higher wind uses A2s.

 

I know I have heard first hand this to be exactly tre based on the 2 sets of regular wind imperials, 1 set of high wind imperials, and 2 sets of Peter Green throbaks that I have bought and compared to Seths.

 

Someone should call these guys. I have the tone I wanted and they described, but I don't know the scientific answer.