Gitfiddler Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 Isn't that why many of us picked up guitars in the first place...? And thanks for the comments, fellas! The aesthetic I was trying for was a sort of 50's tasty electro-industrial. I wanted to be able to see the works glow in the dark! Didn't make it to George's last night, real life intruded. We're planning on annoying his neighbors Wednesday evening, for a final diddle, then I'll take it home and start gigging it to fine tune it. Anybody want to chip in some cabinet and speaker wisdom. I've gone back to some old threads. I'm ready to have Ken put something together and would be very interested in anyone's $.02! Bunch of you guys know a ton! Some of the parameters: portability and smaller footprint (I'm open to 2x12, as well as 1x12); chime; fairly transparent highs; punch; mild "tweedy" breakup; cleans up real well at lower volumes, without losing character; don't know what to think about speaker efficiency; love Greenbacks, but not married to them (Do they make a 30W Greenback?); had good luck with Eminence (Man-O-War and Screamin' Eagle). I'm soliciting wisdom.... Thanks! Avatar Cabinet loaded with Tone Tubbies....
Steiner Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 Avatar Cabinet loaded with Tone Tubbies.... One AlNiCo, one Ceramic TT non-traditional Avatar cab (avatarspeakers.com check fleabay for deals) I prefer the lower register (larger volume speaker cab). Their cabs mimic Fender, Orange and Bogner; might want to do some reading before you jump. Yes, it is the reason were all here; glad that didn't fall by the wayside
Steiner Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 Edit: I just re-read "I'm ready to have Ken put something together" This guy makes speaker cabs too?!!! Which planet do you live on? I like a larger volume cab usually closed back. Think about break-up and the venues you plan on playing. 30W is DAMN LOUD. A 1x12 will break at lower volumes. A 2x12 will provide variation in speakers - 2 TT's or Celestion Blue and Green married together. Bottom line, you're lucky to have someone build the cab, that tolex is virtually impossible to match. Christmas has come early in the Carolinas eh?
blackjack Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 Sweet Slate! Any reason the Off is mid position on the switch? It seems counter productive to warm up the tubes then travel off before firing up the amp i.e., voltage and current spike. That is a Sweet looking amp! If it sounds half as good you're in for some Quality Time! Are you bringing it to PSPII? Can I ride your pony? With respect, of course! I'm the amp builder. Just responding to the question on the power switch. You'll see standby-off-play on other amps as well. Standby connects the heater winding of the power transformer only, and once they're warm the tubes are conducting. And the "On" or "Play" position connects both the heater and main windings. That's true for all amps. With this configuration, shifting through the off position is irrelevant to the main winding as it hasn't been on before this point anyway. Regarding the heater winding, it's interrupted for a split second, and the tubes don't un-warm during that time. To actually answer your really good question, the main isn't the same winding (redundant but significant), and shouldn't suffer significant current inrush. If you're like many amp users, they turn on the amp and ignore standby all together. Well the problem there isn't current inrush. And there is debate as to whether cathode striping is enough to actually worry about. What I never see mentioned is the huge, huge fact that the power supply caps can get "beat up" badly. For example, many amps have a 450v standing supply voltage (i.e. "voltage rail", or "B+", or "Hi-Pot"), and use power supply caps rated at 500v (working volts). They can take voltage stress beyond that limit, but how do they fare? Skipping warm up means the power tubes don't conduct for a bit, so the rail gets up to 700 volts for a second or two. I verified it in simulation and measurement. I talked with the head field application engineer from Sprauge once, and he said that the high voltage will punch holes in the capacitor electrolyte, but these days the technology is good enough that they will "self heal" in time and close those holes somewhat, but be aware it's going to age the caps and they won't work quite as well. take care, George
Paul P Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 I'm the amp builder. Hey George (blackjack) welcome to the HOC ! I see you just joined a few minutes ago, that makes you quite the newbie . Nice to see an amp builder around here. Hope you can stick around.
Steiner Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 Hi George, What do I have to do to get you to move to Michigan? The gents I know here are either all tied up in 18W kits, already made a name for themselves selling standard units or just plain stuck on "pure" Fender circuits. What I wouldn't give to have your cloned self local. Yoslate sure is fortunate. The amp you created for him is nothing less than stunning but, and I mean BIG BUTT, to be able to sit with the creator and tune the circuit has essence of the Trainwreck / Dumble fashion. The point I made is admittedly trite. Logically there seems to be an (albeit slight) advantage to not breaking the current to the heaters when powering up. Mathematically if one flips the switch from bottom to top position in a fluid motion, my point is purely academic. If one pauses in the center/off position there will be a small increase in initial current draw, again academic. What frightens me about a switch like that is the newbie "checking out" the amp; up goes the switch to on without a warm up period. With the off in the lower position there is a natural progression through the standby phase - hopefully with a delay before the on position. It looked like the faceplate was going to be recreated. If that's true, changing the 3-way might be advantageous. I haven't seen under the hood to know if it's a quick solder job or full nightmare. I know the amp will function both ways; I have amps with each configuration. The off-standby-on is easiest for me to use correctly in darkened rooms. By the by, welcome to the HOC! I hope you stick around, it's kind of fun here. I cannot wait to try out your wares in July. Yoslate, you promised!
blackjack Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Hi George, What do I have to do to get you to move to Michigan? The gents I know here are either all tied up in 18W kits, already made a name for themselves selling standard units or just plain stuck on "pure" Fender circuits. What I wouldn't give to have your cloned self local. Yoslate sure is fortunate. The amp you created for him is nothing less than stunning but, and I mean BIG BUTT, to be able to sit with the creator and tune the circuit has essence of the Trainwreck / Dumble fashion. The point I made is admittedly trite. Logically there seems to be an (albeit slight) advantage to not breaking the current to the heaters when powering up. Mathematically if one flips the switch from bottom to top position in a fluid motion, my point is purely academic. If one pauses in the center/off position there will be a small increase in initial current draw, again academic. What frightens me about a switch like that is the newbie "checking out" the amp; up goes the switch to on without a warm up period. With the off in the lower position there is a natural progression through the standby phase - hopefully with a delay before the on position. It looked like the faceplate was going to be recreated. If that's true, changing the 3-way might be advantageous. I haven't seen under the hood to know if it's a quick solder job or full nightmare. I know the amp will function both ways; I have amps with each configuration. The off-standby-on is easiest for me to use correctly in darkened rooms. By the by, welcome to the HOC! I hope you stick around, it's kind of fun here. I cannot wait to try out your wares in July. Yoslate, you promised! Thanks for the warm welcome. And I hope I have time to stay in touch. It's obvious you would get deep into the building of an amp. I share the passion. Using a TPDT switch with center-off should allow that arrangement, and that's a very good idea. After getting the tone dialed in I'll look at that.
blackjack Posted June 16, 2009 Posted June 16, 2009 After thinking on it more, the switches you're talking about must be made to be 'off' in one of the extreme positions, but DPDT otherwise. This is not so common. If you can get that from a regular toggle I'd be interested in knowing.
Steiner Posted June 16, 2009 Posted June 16, 2009 I have a Bogner Shiva configured with the bottom-off, center-standby, up-on. Let me know if I can get numbers or photos for you, I can always crack her for you.
blackjack Posted June 16, 2009 Posted June 16, 2009 I have a Bogner Shiva configured with the bottom-off, center-standby, up-on. Let me know if I can get numbers or photos for you, I can always crack her for you. It's not a new thing, and I know about them. It's a switch in the configuration OFF-ON-ON. If they're available without ordering hundreds, then good, and the problem isn't one of locating them. Earlier, I was trying to indicate that's it's not about rewiring. Sometimes that can be done to do an "end-around" of the configuration internal to the switch. But not true in this case.
yoslate Posted June 19, 2009 Author Posted June 19, 2009 Update: Well, there you go...from "the horse's mouth." I had no idea George would weigh in here. And yes, very, very lucky I am to have such an articulate, knowledgeable guy to work with. George has been at the beach this week, on vacation with his family, and we've still swapped about twenty e-mails. I've dragged the head around to give test drives to some of my trusted friends, although I haven't played it out yet, and they've been very, very positive about the amp. I'm really diggin' it now...and George is threatening to change it up, after thinking about it while vacationing. Collaboration is really...fun? Still don't know about speakers (thanks for all the suggestions!) because I'm waiting for George to get back, before taking it to the shop with the "wall of speakers" I've referred to before. Did have it at the shop where my 4x10 Marshall cab is on consignment, and ran it through that. Best sound yet: robust, chimey clean; slightly crisp Bassman-like breakup; louder than I'll ever need, at 30W, but I want a smaller cabinet with 12's. Funny thing about the episode at the shop. John Tatum, the owner and long-time friend, handed me a guitar to play through it, as I didn't have any of mine with me. Tatum just became a Bill Nash dealer. He handed me a Nash maple board, tobaccoburst, '57 repro. I know there's been back-and-forth on the forum about relic'ed guitars, and I get one's being mystified at paying good money for a "new" completely buggered guitar. Not my intent to open that can of worms, again. But understand this: It was, hands down, no contest, the Best Playing, Best Sounding, Best Set Up Fender-type guitar I've ever put my hands on, period, my wonderful G&L Legacy included! Couldn't sleep that night. Took stock, and decided to see if Tatum was interested in trading some of my stuff for it. He was. We did. It's mine. Traded some good stuff I've had for a long time...not one second's remorse! Gigged it last night...absolute magic!
tulk1 Posted June 19, 2009 Posted June 19, 2009 Hey Rob, After seeing George weigh in here I am really looking forward to hearing you rip some cool licks thru the new toob box. As for the Nash Strat - I'm fairly sure most people here will agree; it doesn't matter the maker. When you find a good guitar, you've found a good guitar. If it speaks to you, that is what is important. Congrats on the new Nash.
fxdx99 Posted June 19, 2009 Posted June 19, 2009 Congrats on the new guitar - and new amp. Hey, '09s not going too bad for ya so far Have heard the Nash name, but haven't seen one. Sounds like a great great axe.
Steiner Posted June 19, 2009 Posted June 19, 2009 FOUL Gentlemen, It's time to enact the warning system. While we all suffer from GAS and AAS, no one has cured both in one thread! I can't recall the last time I cured both in the same year. Now that Yoslate is there, he's just going to make ours that much worse. And just in time for PSPII! This is not healthy for us. Or, perhaps I just EXTREMELY jealous!
Paul P Posted June 19, 2009 Posted June 19, 2009 Took stock, and decided to see if Tatum was interested in trading some of my stuff for it. He was. We did. It's mine. Traded some good stuff I've had for a long time...not one second's remorse! Gigged it last night...absolute magic! Great to hear of your falling in love, but you know what they say...
yoslate Posted June 19, 2009 Author Posted June 19, 2009 In being forthcoming about things, Steiner, I'm just trying to...eschew obfuscation.... Ya know, I just viewed Ron's disc of photos from PSPI, unearthed it as I was cleaning up around the computer. Great shots of the shop and the "do" at Brent's folks. What a time! I'm really looking forward to next month! Hope the cabinet is finished in time. Very excited about sharing the toys!!! I don't know, Paul. I think I'd get mugged if I put up pics of that plank! It doesn't need a polishing cloth; it needs 40 grit sandpaper....
yoslate Posted June 22, 2009 Author Posted June 22, 2009 Progress report: So George returns from the beach...and insists on picking the amp up to "tune the circuits." Just as I was getting comfortable with it.... But this is what I surmise happens in a collaborative project. I threw ideas at George, in decidedly non-technical terms. He interpreted, did the build, and then it's back and forth between us as I grow familiar with the amp, and he refines his thinking about his new design. I returned the amp with the settings on "the sweet spot," very subjective. George took one look at the settings, particularly the mid and high, and said those settings reinforced the changes he'd thought needed to be made. Those, along with making the drive channel have a bit more "presence" (his word). I agreed, using the term "focus" to characterize what I was looking for in the drive. The "mutual ownership" of tone, between the builder and the player is proving to be an interesting push-pull. I trust George's expertise a great deal, and it's funny to watch him "mother" this thing. I have no idea of what he thinks about what I do with his baby.... But the plan is for him to finish the latest tweezing and get it back to me by Friday. I've a gig Friday night, and I wanted to play the amp out. George said he'll be there. The debriefing should be pretty interesting. I have yet to sort out speakers for Ken's cab build. Several of you guys had suggested the Celestion V-30 / G-12H combination. I'm looking forward to choosing the speakers!
JeffB Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Ive got two different 212 cabs both with v30-g12h in them. They both sound different even with the same speakers. Same vibe and similarities but different. I think I actually prefer one of them, the framus cab, with 2 v30's. Its a looser cab. My marshall quad sounds best with 2 v30's and 2 g12h's. Using that cab seems to give any amp I run through it a "marshall" sound. I could be wrong, but it seems to me like you have to choose the speakers to suit the box and find a box that suit your ears. Doesnt matter how hard you try, it seems to me, you cant dial out the sound of the cab or dial in frequencies that the cab doesnt possess. I have a Fender cab that scoops out some of the sweeter mids and dialing some in results in a hard, harsh sound. Doesnt matter what speakers I put in it or what amp I run with it. Its for sale. Any takers? weighs a ton as well and just has one suit case handle on top. Stupid. Aside from those uncertain pondering's, good to hear your amp is moving along nicely. Looks great. Would like to hear the definitive Yoslate tone.
yoslate Posted June 22, 2009 Author Posted June 22, 2009 Ive got two different 212 cabs both with v30-g12h in them. They both sound different even with the same speakers. Same vibe and similarities but different. I think I actually prefer one of them, the framus cab, with 2 v30's. Its a looser cab. My marshall quad sounds best with 2 v30's and 2 g12h's. Using that cab seems to give any amp I run through it a "marshall" sound. I could be wrong, but it seems to me like you have to choose the speakers to suit the box and find a box that suit your ears. Doesnt matter how hard you try, it seems to me, you cant dial out the sound of the cab or dial in frequencies that the cab doesnt possess. I have a Fender cab that scoops out some of the sweeter mids and dialing some in results in a hard, harsh sound. Doesnt matter what speakers I put in it or what amp I run with it. Its for sale. Any takers? weighs a ton as well and just has one suit case handle on top. Stupid. Aside from those uncertain pondering's, good to hear your amp is moving along nicely. Looks great. Would like to hear the definitive Yoslate tone. Hello, Jeff! Are the backs of the two cabs the same? Open? At the top, or the bottom? Closed? I'm not really after a "Marshall sound" per se in the amp, but there is, I think, a quality to most Marshall cabs I've heard (closed back, Celestions) that I like. And I think you're correct in observing the interrelated nature of speakers x in cabinet y. I've been running the amp through a 2x12 cab which George built, Fender-like in design (like a bigger Twin box), loaded with Mojo Celestion clones. Good cabinet with my Vibrolux; not what I'm after with the EL34.... Would love to post some clips, but with dial-up, doing anything on this computer takes longer than I'll likely live, that and getting my crusty old best friend to find time to set up a little session. He's upgraded his Digital Performer and has to redo a lot of the stuff he's done for a proposed live Bob Margolin disc...the plug-ins have changed in the upgraded program. That's his priority just now.... Thanks for the posting.
JeffB Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Hey Rob, The Framus cab can be 1/4 open or closed. Im not sure its the best cab. But at 20kg it gets used the most. Its the lightest cab I have. But when comparing it to the other cab Im comparing them as both closed backs. Im undecided if I like it open or closed with my Mesa. But I like it closed with the JTM and open with my fenders. But I could be just splitting hairs or something. Im used to hearing my Fenders through open backs(combo's) and marshalls through closed backs. I used to run two Framus 212's with a Mesa Nomad. One was closed and the one on top was 1/4 open. The Nomad didnt get along with g12h's, to harsh to my ears, so I ran all V30's. It was a bit too compressed though. The g12h's I have were manufactured in 1981. They dont sound quite the same as the newer ones. Ive done a side by side test with my 80's quad w/g12h's and a new one thats done a couple of gigs. Dont know which was better. just different. Mine are probably worn out.
tulk1 Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Rob, Just wanted to toss in my 2bits on the speaker thang. One of my fav cabs is a Marshall TSL 2000 2x12. Open mid-back. Has the Marshall branded Cel30/Heritage 30 combo for speakers. Separately, I'm not a fan of either of those speakers. But combined in the same cabinet they create some kind of magical mojo. Maybe it's characteristics of each that I don't like that accentuate and compliment each other. One speakers flaws are covered up by sympathetic vibrations from the other or some such unfathomonable (to me) phenom. Not sure. But it sounds sweet. For me it's the perfect extension cab. It's light weight, easily carried by one handle if need be. Will hold a full size head or fit right under a combo amp. And looks pretty cool, too. I don't use it much anymore since I've gone to smaller combos. But I like it so much that I refuse to sell it ... just in case I need it.
yoslate Posted June 30, 2009 Author Posted June 30, 2009 Alright, the saga continues.... George had some ideas during his week away from the amp, vacationing with his family. He's a man possessed, I think. Got the amp from me the day he returned. I went over a few days later for another spank of the re-worked head. He can give the ugly details of what he did, but what I heard was in the drive channel. The clean was left alone, as it's gorgeous, lush, full, huge bottom end, but with plenty of mids and highs, so that even humbuckers have a bit of shimmer through it. The drive channel, on the other hand, had a new crisp, brittle, edgy, sizzle to it I just didn't like at all. It sounded like the only Bad Cat I've ever heard. Probably a great tone for a twenty-something shredder, but not at all useful to me. So we talked at length about what I wanted eliminated, and what was gone which I wanted back. I drove away from George's thinking...nuts! So back over Sunday, with the Nash Strat, which produces just about every tone and overtone a guitar can. Well, everything I'd wanted was back...and then some! The edgy sizzle is all gone, replaced with a warmer tweedy break up and a touch of Marshall crunch. Yesterday, I spent four-and-a-half hours playing every guitar I own through it. The Nash Strat and the 576 with Phat Cats give me everything I need to play out. The Tele and the 150, also with Phat Cats, are just icing on the cake. The Tele has that bite at the bridge you just can't get with anything else, the neck snaps and rings smoothly; and the 150 is fat, round, and authoritative in all three positions. So the amp is there. Now all it needs is to be gig tested, and I'll have the opportunity to do that Friday night, in a room I've played a million times. Ken called yesterday and wanted me to come to his shop to see the 2x12 cabinet, in progress. The cab is small because I wanted convenience (old guy concession), and the baffle will be angled up, slightly. The back will consist of two interchangeable panels, to give an aperture top, middle, or bottom, whichever I choose, plus a solid panel, for a closed back, if I want that. Today, I hope to go to Dale Lasley's and plug the head into the famous wall of speakers, to try to figure out what to load the cab with. Sure wish I could assemble the HOC Committee of Experience and Good Ears to consult on that. So, it's just about there. And yes, pics posted when it's finished....
golferwave Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 Rob you must have to pinch yourself to see if you're dreaming. How great to be able to sit down with a builder and dial in your tone. After you're both done I'm sure it'll be a real killer. Congrats!
yoslate Posted July 3, 2009 Author Posted July 3, 2009 Thanks, Scott. Cabinet finished and speakers chosen yesterday. Played it at the jam we host last night, to very positive reviews form the room. First real gig with it in a couple of hours! I think it's "my voice." Needs some tweezing yet, but it's very, very close. More comprehensive report tomorrow, after the gig, tonight. Thanks for the interest, fellas. Gotta pack up and go. Happy Fourth to everyone!
yoslate Posted July 10, 2009 Author Posted July 10, 2009 Always some kinks to work out. Did gig the new amp last Friday night. We even got a sound check. I play in a band with guys who actually show up on time! How odd is that? It was the Friday before the fourth, and we think we see the effect of the struggling economy in thinner houses at a lot of the jobs we're playing, lately. Not much of a house. But that's another topic. Everything was jake with the amp as we worked through a couple of tunes. I started with the Nash Strat, but then picked up the Tele (a higher output guitar) and jumped into the drive channel. Barf! Whuzzat??? Major roaring falling apart 'sploding breakup, when I spanked the low "E" string. Twiddled it, and yep...something was definitely amiss. Had the reverb pretty far up, as it's not dialed in yet. George had said something about running the drive channel through the reverb tank in some kind of experimental way, so I thought, hmmm. Backed the reverb almost out of it, and the hacking cough was gone. So I did the gig with just the clean channel. That's not a problem for me. And the clean channel on this amp is something to behold. It's rich, deep, resonant, robust, with just enough chime, and a nice focus, and clarity. Great for rhythm! George was there to listen to it, and not happy. So I delivered the amp to him the next day. He apparently wanted to retool the drive channel and the reverb. Just got an e-mail from him last night. Apparently the culprit was a bad El-34. Brand new Tung-Sol, and it was bad. So I'll be over there tonight to see how it is. Oh, and the speakers I had installed in the cab are both Eminence: A Wizard, and a Red Fang, which is their AlNiCo. Really nice combination; they complement one another nicely. A lot of work in this thing (I probably don't even know), but it will be worth it.
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