ingeneri Posted June 1, 2009 Posted June 1, 2009 Has anyone tried out the Fender '57 Deluxe or Victoria 21112 for jazz? The Fender was reportedly the amp in Rudy Van Gelder's studio, but you don't see any jazzers using it today. I'm wondering if this is because it has too little headroom for anything but studio work, or if modern guys just opt for solid state head/combo set ups when dealing with modern touring and gut wrenching air travel.
slider313 Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 Not many amps beat a tweed Deluxe 5E3 in the studio. With a mic in front of it there's nothing it can't do.
Steiner Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 Victoria is a company I've heard many good things about; never been fortunate enough to try one. I do have a 5E3 that does do it! Your actual mileage may vary...
Kuz Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 I have a '57 Deluxe RI with a period correct Jensen ALNiCo. I heard from two very reliable source that for this amp ( Tweed Deluxe) the Fender smokes Victoria's version and is less expensive. Remember the 57 Deluxe RI is a Custom shop amp. Not usually crazy about the new Fender amps, but my sources were correct this time!
tulk1 Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 My 5E3 is not my favorite amp. Can barely get it to clean up at all. And that is with G&L single coils. Probably just my amp, tho'. And then again, I don't play jazz, either.
fxdx99 Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 Has anyone tried out the Fender '57 Deluxe or Victoria 21112 for jazz? The Fender was reportedly the amp in Rudy Van Gelder's studio, but you don't see any jazzers using it today. I'm wondering if this is because it has too little headroom for anything but studio work, or if modern guys just opt for solid state head/combo set ups when dealing with modern touring and gut wrenching air travel. Having heard your posted mp3s, far be it from me to offer you any advice on jazz!! But I think you're probably right on with your offering of little headroom for jazz. You probably know this, but the 2 volume controls are interactive - turn the mic to 10 and set the instrument volume to 3 or 4 and it's very very clean. Move the mic back to 7 and it's overdrive city. The sage advice of 'set the amp at it's sweet spot and use the guitar volume' is probably never as true as it is w/a 5e3. The volume is almost an 'on/off' at the 3 level with anything above 3 pretty much just adding more dirt. Anyway, wouldn't think that it'd be a great jazz gigging amp due to headroom limitations. I've also 'heard' that the Fender amp is made by Victoria, but can't substantiate if that's really true. Now if ya wanna play some blues... it's 5e3 4me.
smurph1 Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 My 5E3 is not my favorite amp. Can barely get it to clean up at all. And that is with G&L single coils. Probably just my amp, tho'. And then again, I don't play jazz, either.I don't play jazz either, and this may be a bit off subject, but a Blues Junior has a lot of headroom..Plus it will stay clean if you keep the pre-volume low and crank the master volume..Very nice clean tone..My 2 cents
barrymclark Posted June 5, 2009 Posted June 5, 2009 This has been my experience: About any amp can do jazz. Just depends on what your idea of what jazz should 'sound' like. I have seen dudes whip out a Peavey and Jackson and play some great sounding Jazz. I have seen people with a JC120 and a D'Angelico sound like crap. Try it out. If it does what you want: sweet. Me? I love the jazzy tones I can pull from the Vox I got. With my Vox and 140 (did I mention my 140)... nothing I can't do. Well, nothing THEY can't do. Plenty I can't. Even without the headroom... I am sure it would work unless you have people with strict guidelines on sound. I have heard some grit in jazz tones before. Certainly.
Paul P Posted June 5, 2009 Posted June 5, 2009 This has been my experience: About any amp can do jazz. My 535 through my 10w dual 6v6 tube amp can produce some pretty nice jazz-like tone if I turn the treble down and use my fingers, or just my thumb. So I'm also of the opinion that jazz is significantly in the playing.
tulk1 Posted June 5, 2009 Posted June 5, 2009 So I'm also of the opinion that jazz is significantly in the playing. It's the same thing in country music. Popular opinion is you need a Tele-ish guitar to play country music. But it's not the guitar. It's how you play it. Brent Mason - country guitar gawd - has a Valley Art-enstein guitar with HB, Strat and Tele pups and a pedal board to make a metal player swoon. Chet played hollow bodies, so does Roy Clark (hehe). And all kinds of different amps. So yeah, once again it isn't the rig so much as it's the player. Betcha our own 'slate can play jazz on his 150 as well as his big 'ol hollow bods.
ingeneri Posted June 5, 2009 Author Posted June 5, 2009 Christ guys, take the time to bother to read my first post. I wrote I'm happy with my amp and the jazz tones I get out of it. I was merely curious about this model and, given it's reported use in so many historic recordings, why you didn't see many pros playing them. I'm not interested in everyone's amp set up. I've played a Blues Jr. and a Crate 60 before, and frankly my DRRI smokes them both. I'm just interested in anyone's experience with either the original 57 Deluxe since they are much harder to find or get the chance to try out. And no, you can't get a good jazz tone out of any amp. Some amps break up way too early for using anyplace but your living room. I can get an acceptable tone on just about any guitar or amp I want. But I also don't want to spend all my time fighting my equipment instead of focusing on what I want to be playing. Charlie Parker may have played a plastic toy saxophone one night, but I bet it wasn't his most comfortable performance.
yoslate Posted June 5, 2009 Posted June 5, 2009 Charlie Parker may have played a plastic toy saxophone one night, but I bet it wasn't his most comfortable performance. +1 ...in particular, the use of the word "comfortable" in this context. I've been fighting amps a bit lately. The new one's almost finished; can't wait! By the way, Matt, how's the Super treating you? Been playing it out recently, haven't you?
Jazzpunk Posted June 6, 2009 Posted June 6, 2009 Has anyone tried out the Fender '57 Deluxe or Victoria 21112 for jazz? The Fender was reportedly the amp in Rudy Van Gelder's studio, but you don't see any jazzers using it today. I'm wondering if this is because it has too little headroom for anything but studio work, or if modern guys just opt for solid state head/combo set ups when dealing with modern touring and gut wrenching air travel. I haven't seen any jazzers playing either of these two amps but I'm assuming it's mainly due to headroom issues. I'd love to try a Victoria out myself but I'm thinking it would have to be a higher watt model as I've read that they break up relatively early. I thought the Swart (which is also based on a Fender Tweed) sounded pretty sweet here but again, I don't think it would stay clean enough once pushed to the levels needed in a band situation: I do like the Swart tone though. I'd be really interested in a higher watt combo if they ever come out with one!
Paul P Posted June 6, 2009 Posted June 6, 2009 Instead of using different amps for different volume requirements why not use one amp who's tone you really like then a PA (your's or the venue's) to make up the difference in volume ? When an amp breaks up would no longer be an issue and you'd always have exactly the tone you want.
fxdx99 Posted June 6, 2009 Posted June 6, 2009 Has anyone tried out the Fender '57 Deluxe or Victoria 21112 for jazz? The Fender was reportedly the amp in Rudy Van Gelder's studio, but you don't see any jazzers using it today. I'm wondering if this is because it has too little headroom for anything but studio work, or if modern guys just opt for solid state head/combo set ups when dealing with modern touring and gut wrenching air travel. Hi Matt - not sure if this is helpful, but below is an excerpt from Weber's book "Tube Amp Talk for the Guitarist and Tech" on the 57 Deluxe amp. Note the reference to the clean tones obtained when the mic channel volume is max'd out. I've done this w/mine and it does provide a clean tone (a nice one) without the 'dirt' normally associated w/a 5e3 circuit. But it's not as quiet in this setting as it is with the mic volume set at say 7. It's not noisy from a live playing perspective, but noisier than you'd probably want recording. Anyway, if you try one out, can try out the volume settings... Let’s look at another example, the tweed Deluxe. This amp is very unique because the volume controls are not voltage dividers!! Did you ever wonder why all tweed Deluxes seem to have an audio pot with too fast a taper? The volume control in a tweed Deluxe works by “loading down” the signal coming from the plates of the preamp tubes! If you are plugged into the instrument channel, the signal goes backwards through the microphone channel’s volume pot, through the microphone channel’s coupling cap, plate resistor, and filter cap to ground. You will get maximum mids in the instrument channel with the microphone channel’s volume control turned about halfway up. You will get a maximum midrange scoop with the microphone channel’s volume control turned full up. This would work the same if you switched channels and were plugged into the microphone channel and adjusting the instrument channel’s volume. This can be used to your advantage, especially if you have an A/B box. Set the microphone channel all the way up and the instrument channel halfway up. Use an A/B box to select between the microphone and instrument channels. Here’s what will happen: When you select the instrument channel, you will get a fabulous clean tone. Since the instrument volume is turned halfway, you are not really overdriving the instrument channel that hard and since the microphone’s volume control is turned full up, you are scooping out the mids in the instrument channel. This gives you that “better than blackface Twin” clean tone-to die for. When you select the microphone channel (which is turned all the way up), you will get a fabulous lead tone. For one thing, you will be overdriving the output stage and because the instrument channel is halfway up, you will be boosting the mids as much as possible. This results in a thick, creamy, cello-like tone with incredible sustain.
yoslate Posted June 6, 2009 Posted June 6, 2009 +1 for an informative, well-written post, Randy! Thanks for the perspective.
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