Tube amp question from an inexperienced, ignorant neophyte

[Scooter]

I've played only solid state amps since picking up a guitar almost 23 years ago. I'm used to a MV. The highest wattage I've had in an amp has been 65. I've turned it up good a few times and it was enough to make a grown man pee his pants and give some hilites to his hair.

 

Now as I'm still considering tube amps there are a few in the consideration batch that are 30 watts and class A. I know 30 watts is still LOUD. And I won't get a lot of chances to open it up for the goods. The thing is I like the sound of an amp first and foremost for its cleans. If I have a good foundational clean sound then I'm good to go. I can always use pedals on top.

 

So here's my question: Do mid-wattage tube amps (18-30w, lets say) still sound good clean at low, home-friendly volumes, using pedals to push them when desired? Or do even the cleans at low volumes sound weak until opened up a bit? Can a 30 w tube amp still have a sweet clean at its lowest volumes?

 

This is THE question for me that remains. It will definitely have an impact on my decision.

 

Forgive my ignorance here . Thanks.

 

Scott

[Scooter]

Crud, man!!! Thought I was in the regular AMPS section! Sorry.

[Mikenov]

So,

tube amps sound better when you get the tubes cooking. That being said, the reason tube amps sound better when you push the pre and power tubes is the "dirt" or harmonics you can get when you push those tubes. You don't have to go high gain to reap that benefit. I think from what you are describing though you would want to aim lower in terms of wattage. 30w class A is going to be a REALLY loud amp. For perspective the amp I brought to the PSPII is 3ow class a (rocker 30 head)

The REASON tube amps sound good is because of the harmonics a grit you can get when you push the tubes a bit. For that reason getting a 15w to 20w amp is going to give you the ability to push that amp a bit at lower volumes giving you the benefits of tube amplifacation at volumes you can use. You should really check the Hughes and Kettner 25th anniversary 20w tube edition.

the clean channel on this amp is just awesome (so is the gain channel) and it really sounds good around 9 o'clock which is a pretty reasonable volume.

[111518]

I have a little bit different take here. I'm reading Scooter to say he basically wants a clean sound, just wants the responsiveness and richness and musicality that you can get from tubes --and tubes don't have to cook to add warmth and depth. (witness the recent resurgence of tube-based hi fi equipment, which is not designed to push the tubes into distortion). I'd just say ... play before you buy, and don't put too much stock in power ratings. I do think that a lot of the new generation of tube amps are designed to begin to distort at low volume, because that's what blues/rock guys want, and the amps aren't very good at doing a pristine clean sound at moderate volume. For example, I bought a Rivera pubster, thinking 22 watts would be like a Deluxe Reverb, but the amp is voiced to begin to show hair way before a DR would. I'm not sure I would take it to a jazz gig at a noisy dinner club --not enough headroom to support complex harmonies where even a hint of distortion is going to gum up the works. (I would take a 20-watt Deluxe Reverb to such a gig). I do think there is a threshold of volume that most tube amps need to open up, but it also varies widely (speakers make a big difference here, too). Just a very complex interaction of pickup, preamp tube and voicing, power tubes, speakers ... and your taste. Gotta test drive, preferably in the setting where you will actually be using the amp. My 2 cents.

[SouthpawGuy]

A Blues Junior would be a good first valve amp, after a long hiatus from valve amps I bought one myself for home use, ( I don't gig). I bought it mainly for its clean tone, and it is also very controllable at low volume levels which is a major priority for my needs. It sounds excellent with my Heritages and it also loves single coil pickups. Another bonus is that it is very compact and easy to store out of the way when not in use. I got the tweed version with the Jensen speaker, it also happens to look very cool.

 

Obligatory pics ....

 

With 535 and a Deluxe Strat

 

 

with a G&L ASAT Special

 

 

I forgot to mention that it's 15 watts and loves pedals.

[Scooter]

I have a little bit different take here. I'm reading Scooter to say he basically wants a clean sound, just wants the responsiveness and richness and musicality that you can get from tubes --and tubes don't have to cook to add warmth and depth. (witness the recent resurgence of tube-based hi fi equipment, which is not designed to push the tubes into distortion). I'd just say ... play before you buy, and don't put too much stock in power ratings. I do think that a lot of the new generation of tube amps are designed to begin to distort at low volume, because that's what blues/rock guys want, and the amps aren't very good at doing a pristine clean sound at moderate volume. For example, I bought a Rivera pubster, thinking 22 watts would be like a Deluxe Reverb, but the amp is voiced to begin to show hair way before a DR would. I'm not sure I would take it to a jazz gig at a noisy dinner club --not enough headroom to support complex harmonies where even a hint of distortion is going to gum up the works. (I would take a 20-watt Deluxe Reverb to such a gig). I do think there is a threshold of volume that most tube amps need to open up, but it also varies widely (speakers make a big difference here, too). Just a very complex interaction of pickup, preamp tube and voicing, power tubes, speakers ... and your taste. Gotta test drive, preferably in the setting where you will actually be using the amp. My 2 cents.

 

This is exactly what I was getting at, 111518. Like I said, if I find a wicked clean sound I'm happy and can use pedals if I need a push. Plus, once in a while I'll get to open her up a bit and enjoy the goods, but not often. My fear is that at very low volumes a tube amp wouldn't get sounds worthy of itself (clean-wise) unless you opened it up a bit (LOUD). That's what I really want to find out about.

 

"and don't put too much stock in power ratings." I think I know what you're saying here but could you elaborate a little here, 111518? Are you saying if you find a 30 watter with the cleans you're looking for and that's what you're after then it'll do? That the low volume cleans will still sound good? (sowree eye sownd lyke un idyot butt dat's wot et iz.)

 

Southpaw, I appreciate the tip on the Fender. I am so in love with British sounds, though, be it Hiwatt, Vox or Marshall (not necessarily from those companies, but similar categories of sound, anyway). I've been looking at amps in the British camp.

 

Also, thanks for the feedback everyone. Really appreciate it and your patience with a tube amp greenhorn like myself . Very helpful stuff from everyone.

[zydecosoultrain]

I use a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe which is overkill for practice at home but I love the clean sound. My guitar teacher gave me great tip from my when I told him that it sounded a bit thin with the HRW pickups on my H575. Turn the amp volume up to at least 3, and the guitar tone down. That's probably obvious to a lot of experienced musicians but it wasn't to me. The improved tone has improved my enjoyment of playing the 575 immensely.

[Scooter]

I use a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe which is overkill for practice at home but I love the clean sound. My guitar teacher gave me great tip from my when I told him that it sounded a bit thin with the HRW pickups on my H575. Turn the amp volume up to at least 3, and the guitar tone down. That's probably obvious to a lot of experienced musicians but it wasn't to me. The improved tone has improved my enjoyment of playing the 575 immensely.

Now that's something I wouldn't have thought of either. Very useful advice there, z. Actually, that's quite an exciting tip! See, now I'm starting to feel there's hope to go for what I really want even though it may be 30 watts. Thanks for that, z!

[111518]

"and don't put too much stock in power ratings." I think I know what you're saying here but could you elaborate a little here, 111518? Are you saying if you find a 30 watter with the cleans you're looking for and that's what you're after then it'll do? That the low volume cleans will still sound good?

Scooter:

I guess I'm saying tube amps have two thresholds: a min. volume at which they begin to have some responsiveness and voice, and then another one where warm begins to merge into distortion. Different designs might have different thresholds --high headroom might go along with a low minimal threshold, but it might not. In my experience, and to my ears, this largely comes down to the different characteristics of power tube types.

 

Sounds to me like you are a El-84 guy. 6v6s(my tube of choice) and 6L6's are associated with Fender amp styles, and El-34s, the tubes in the big Marshalls, have to be driven beyond practice-room volume to begin to speak. So, the el-84, used in Vox designs and the 18-watt Marshall designs, seems to offer the set of characteristics you are after. It's not quite as warm at low volumes as a 6v6 (please understand all this is to my ears, and in my humble opinion), but it begins to speak about as early. It is brighter and tighter than a 6v6, and begins to distort at around the same volume, but the shift from first breakup to full out distortion is more rapid. If you like that Vox jangle, el-84 designs are where I'd begin to look. A 15 watt vox or a 18 watt marshall will have enough headroom for playing clean at home. 4xel84 30watt-ish watt designs will have significantly more headroom (which you probably don't need) and maybe a slightly higher threshold before they become responsive.

 

The 2xel84 amp that is on my want-to-have-a-chance-to-play list is the Dr Z Maz jr. I've heard them played, and they sound great, but I've never had a chance to play one. (I don't know much about the Hot Rod Deluxe or the Blues Jr. Most of my amps are riffs on the Deluxe Reverb, that has defined the Fender sound for me.)

 

My main point is that all of these ascriptions of tone are very subjective. Your "clean" might not be mine, and your "bedroom volume" might be much louder or less loud than mine. So, try before you buy.

[Scooter]

Scooter:

I guess I'm saying tube amps have two thresholds: a min. volume at which they begin to have some responsiveness and voice, and then another one where warm begins to merge into distortion. Different designs might have different thresholds --high headroom might go along with a low minimal threshold, but it might not. In my experience, and to my ears, this largely comes down to the different characteristics of power tube types.

 

Sounds to me like you are a El-84 guy. 6v6s(my tube of choice) and 6L6's are associated with Fender amp styles, and El-34s, the tubes in the big Marshalls, have to be driven beyond practice-room volume to begin to speak. So, the el-84, used in Vox designs and the 18-watt Marshall designs, seems to offer the set of characteristics you are after. It's not quite as warm at low volumes as a 6v6 (please understand all this is to my ears, and in my humble opinion), but it begins to speak about as early. It is brighter and tighter than a 6v6, and begins to distort at around the same volume, but the shift from first breakup to full out distortion is more rapid. If you like that Vox jangle, el-84 designs are where I'd begin to look. A 15 watt vox or a 18 watt marshall will have enough headroom for playing clean at home. 4xel84 30watt-ish watt designs will have significantly more headroom (which you probably don't need) and maybe a slightly higher threshold before they become responsive.

 

The 2xel84 amp that is on my want-to-have-a-chance-to-play list is the Dr Z Maz jr. I've heard them played, and they sound great, but I've never had a chance to play one. (I don't know much about the Hot Rod Deluxe or the Blues Jr. Most of my amps are riffs on the Deluxe Reverb, that has defined the Fender sound for me.)

 

My main point is that all of these ascriptions of tone are very subjective. Your "clean" might not be mine, and your "bedroom volume" might be much louder or less loud than mine. So, try before you buy.

11518, that was a great rundown. Thank you for taking the time to elaborate on all this. I was checking out the Dr Z Maz jr recently myself. It looks like one sweet amp. You have good taste! The el84 variety I've been considering have been the Reeves Custom 18 and Mojave Coyote (12 watts). There is also a guy named Michael Moody (Magic Amps) who has a few 15 watt amps in the Vox vein that run on EF86 tubes. Then there's...I've got it bad, man.

 

This has been a very enlightening thread for me.

[Mikenov]

i'm telling you that hughes and kettner 25th anniversary is sweet. 2el84s spring reverb great dirty and fabulous clean

[rjsanders]

i'm a major (in my own mind) Heritage Victory fan. no longer available. if you like 6v6-y amps, then the Swart AST would go nicely on your list...a friend had one (since he went nutty over Krinard's stuff) and recently sold it to Tim Volpicella (an awesome talent). i played it, too, and was quite impressed.

 

another, harder-to-find, one i'd love to try is the smaller Juke (disclosure: i'm notoriously biased re Jukes).

 

one i've never had a chance with but has clips you might enjoy is Nolatone. there might be one in Chicagoland somewhere to try.

 

the Jukes have MV, the others break up sooner than the little Victory

 

[Scooter]

i'm a major (in my own mind) Heritage Victory fan. no longer available. if you like 6v6-y amps, then the Swart AST would go nicely on your list...a friend had one (since he went nutty over Krinard's stuff) and recently sold it to Tim Volpicella (an awesome talent). i played it, too, and was quite impressed.

 

another, harder-to-find, one i'd love to try is the smaller Juke (disclosure: i'm notoriously biased re Jukes).

 

one i've never had a chance with but has clips you might enjoy is Nolatone. there might be one in Chicagoland somewhere to try.

 

the Jukes have MV, the others break up sooner than the little Victory

 

Thanks for the tips, RJ. Actually, Wolfe Guitars has at least one new Heritage Victory left. It's going for $1550. Have you had a Victory or played one, RJ? The Swart AST is a sweet amp, too. For a while I was convinced I was going to go with something in the British vein, but I've become more open-minded over the last few weeks. My brain is all over the place with this amp decision.

[rjsanders]

Thanks for the tips, RJ. Actually, Wolfe Guitars has at least one new Heritage Victory left. It's going for $1550. Have you had a Victory or played one, RJ? The Swart AST is a sweet amp, too. For a while I was convinced I was going to go with something in the British vein, but I've become more open-minded over the last few weeks. My brain is all over the place with this amp decision.

 

i had a Vic combo for a couple years, sold it when i scored the first Vic head built (PaulC's personal & sentimental favorite). it's a combination of Vox AC-50 and Fender tweedy sounds. can be quite chimey. 11" depth of cab gives it extra oomph - it's the "biggest" sounding amp of its kind i've ever encountered. with single-coils it can get pretty loud (22 honest tube watts, class AB), with the HRW's in my Millie DC it could scream when cranked, but i usually played at around 1/2+ and used a Tim pedal or other for solo boosts or extra gain. it loves pedals. it's got great clean headroom - maybe not what you're looking for. non-MV, great reverb, Fendery but not splashy or surfs-up. the Wolfe vid is pretty representative

- but it could do nice country, jazz, blues, too. versatile IMHO.

 

the Swart's not quite as loud, but would be plenty for home - jam - small room gigs. perfectly suitable for medium-room gigs when miked. kinda dark or mellow compared to the Vic's voicing. deeper reverb, also Fendery. real nice vibrato. also non-MV but breaks up sooner. Wolfe has a lot of demo vids of it w/different guitars and pedals. a b*tch to swap speakers (my only real gripe with it). great amp.

 

[tulk1]

Just to toss this in. I was at Guitar Crappers today. They had the new Marshall Haze. Seriously, I was impressed. Not only did it look good!! But it sounded good, too. Very good. The built in effects ... they were decent. Just icing on the cake. But for the price break, darned good amp.

[wingnut1]

A blackface Vibroverb or Vibrolux Reverb will give you plenty of clean headroom and will take pedals really well.

[Scooter]

Thanks, guys, for all the tips on the various amps you've suggested. Really appreciate it. Still have to look at the Marshall Tulk suggested and I'll definitely look at the Vibroverb and Vibrolux Reverb. I've spent A LOT of time looking into a lot of amps and am amazed at how many great amps are out there.

 

Found another really cool amp company, too: Twister Amps (www.twisteramps.com). They have an amp called the Devil's Deluxe (blackface-type) that can take 6v6 (15w) or 6L6 (20w) and has some other real nice features. Jade, the owner, is fantastic. He gets it. Been diggin' Red Iron Amps a bunch, too. Paul Sanchez, of Red Iron, is just like Jade. I really like to give my business to guys like these. My top reason for wanting a Heritage guitar is based on this factor.

 

Mmmmmmmm...amps.

[rjsanders]

...

Found another really cool amp company, too: Twister Amps (www.twisteramps.com). They have an amp called the Devil's Deluxe (blackface-type) that can take 6v6 (15w) or 6L6 (20w) and has some other real nice features. Jade, the owner, is fantastic. He gets it. Been diggin' Red Iron Amps a bunch, too. Paul Sanchez, of Red Iron, is just like Jade. I really like to give my business to guys like these. My top reason for wanting a Heritage guitar is based on this factor.

...

 

yeah, when you see the list of amps user-reviewed in Harmony Central, it's pretty stunning. golden age of amps IMHO, too bad it's not the golden age of tubes/valves. nevertheless, good new-production tubes are readily available and not too expensive

 

gotta love it when builders are so into their work...

 

[Scooter]

yeah, when you see the list of amps user-reviewed in Harmony Central, it's pretty stunning. golden age of amps IMHO, too bad it's not the golden age of tubes/valves. nevertheless, good new-production tubes are readily available and not too expensive

 

gotta love it when builders are so into their work...

 

I don't know much about the tubes available today vs. what they used to be like simply because that is still an area of ignorance for me. I do agree with everything else you said, though. Even where once-mighty amp companies have been watered down in quality there are so many newer amp companies that have risen to take the baton or opened up beautiful, new sonic territory.

[rjsanders]

I don't know much about the tubes available today vs. what they used to be like simply because that is still an area of ignorance for me. I do agree with everything else you said, though. Even where once-mighty amp companies have been watered down in quality there are so many newer amp companies that have risen to take the baton or opened up beautiful, new sonic territory.

 

 

i'm not a real technical guy, but i've read a couple books and come to trust a couple good techs here (both have engineering degrees & dropped out of the SillyCon Valley ratRace to do the tube amp thing). for me that's Scott Kinkel and Val King. but there are good guys all over.

 

there's a lot of scamming on going on out there, so having experts handy is key. Both these guys, Scott & Val, e.g., have the know-how & the gear to evaluate NOS tubes or recommend new-issue ones. TGP has several widely-respected sellers/techs on hand, too. the tech sections are good places to post questions.

 

the fun part is finding out what sounds appeal to you. unfortunately (?) for me, i've found 5881s & KT66s, EL84s, and 6V6s all particular charms and wiles to beguile - so i really do need several different tube amps