575 vs. ES-175 neck pickup position

[ingeneri]

The 575's pickups are placed immediately after the fretboard. The ES-175's have about an inch or so in between the end of the fingerboard and the neck pickup. Anyone know why Heritage made this change when they designed the 575 back in the day?

 

 

[111518]

Ingeneri, you probably know all this stuff, but you invited speculation, so ...

 

I've wondered about the gap between fingerboard and pickup on 175s as well. I checked some of my reference stuff on Gibson and all I can piece together is that the 175 was introduced at the same time that the P-90 was becoming the standard Gibson pickup, and there was concern about adjustment. The CC pickup could be adjusted up and down, but the only adjustment for the P-90 was the pole pieces, so I'm guessing that the pickup was simply moved "up" the arch so that it was located close enough to the strings to make the pole piece adjustment have an impact. By the time the 175 was fitted with a bucker, I'd guess Gibson assumed the "look" of the previous placement had become an identifier of the model, or maybe they had a jig that cut the hole and they didn't want to re-machine.

 

Heritage, again I'd speculate, simply moved their bucker to the standard location, since obviously the bucker has both height and pole piece adjustment.

 

I can't find anything that suggests pickup placement on the 175, or much of any other guitar, for that matter, was based on the physics of string vibration, or at a particular harmonic. Sort of like the sizes of traditional speaker cabs --had more to do with manufacturing convenience and marketing than acoustics/physics.

[ingeneri]

Thanks, I had heard there that reason for the P-90 placement on the original ES-175s, but, as you note, it's inapplicable for the HB'ers. Interestingly, the L-5 and Super 400 have the same placement as teh 575 (and, of course Golden and Super Eagles).

 

My question is narrower. Back in '85 when they were first designing the 575 and changing it from teh 175 (smaller depth, carved top, etc..), why did they decide to change the pickup placement as well?

 

Interestingly, the 525 has the same placement for it's P-90s as the 575's humbuckers. So either Heritage solved the problem from the '50s or realized it was pretty irrelevant. I certainly haven't had problems with the Lollars I put in my 575.

 

Not second guessing the masters, just curious.

[Flat]

I wonder if the location was determined in part by the position of the internal braces?

 

It's hard to tell, but I think this Joe Pass Custom that Gibson made in the early 1990s moved the pickup closer to the fretboard (where it belongs, imho--mellower tone). They also made it just a bit thinner than the standard ES-175 (sound familiar?)

 

[Jazzpunk]

I certainly haven't had problems with the Lollars I put in my 575.

 

We ever going to get a pic?

[Gitfiddler]

I wondered the same thing, but was glad Heritage moved the pickup closer to the end of the neck.

 

Maybe it was done in order to get the harmonic over the neck pickup.

[111518]

I wonder if the location was determined in part by the position of the internal braces?

 

It's hard to tell, but I think this Joe Pass Custom that Gibson made in the early 1990s moved the pickup closer to the fretboard (where it belongs, imho--mellower tone). They also made it just a bit thinner than the standard ES-175 (sound familiar?)

 

 

Cool. I didn't know about the Joe Pass Custom. I found a Youtube video that shows Pass playing what must be the Gibson Custom, and the pickup is no doubt closer to the fingerboard than on the standard model. Here's a link.

 

This is interesting, since the Joe Pass Ibanez model, (a very nice guitar), had the pickup in the traditional 175 position, away from the fingerboard end.

 

I got out the trusty inspection mirror and checked out the bracing in my 175 (one of the recent reissues with P-90s), and it has two parallel braces that run just along the outside edge of the pickup cutouts (the dogear screws go through the braces), with one cross brace under the bridge. The braces end just to the neck side of the front pickup cutout, but there is no cross brace that would prevent moving the pickup placement forward. The arch of the top almost creates a peak that the pickup sits on. moving a P-90 forward would put it on a slope, and lower it, but of course this wouldn't be a concern with a bucker, as long as you leveled the pickup ring. In fact, in your picture you can see the slope at which the pickup ring sits on Pass's guitar.

 

I know it doesn't answer Ingeneri's original question, because I have no way of knowing what drove the Heritage design, but closer inspection seems to confirm (to me, anyway) that the press mold for the top of the 175 was designed to create a place for what was originally a single P-90 close to the strings, and to make that point part of the overall arch of the top determined that the pickup had to be pulled back from the end of the fretboard. Makes sense to me that the Heritage guys, without that concern about limited adjustment and looking to maximize the tone difference between front and back in a two- pickup design, would move the front pickup forward. I know that some Heritage archtops are cross braced instead of parallel braced, which might influence pickup placement, but I don't think that is true of the models that come standard with two pickups, like the 575. (Checked my 550, and it has parallel bracing.)

 

This post is testimony to the fact that having a stack of papers to grade will drive you to almost any means of procrastination...

[DC Ron]

Cool. I didn't know about the Joe Pass Custom. I found a Youtube video that shows Pass playing what must be the Gibson Custom, and the pickup is no doubt closer to the fingerboard than on the standard model. Here's a link.

 

This is interesting, since the Joe Pass Ibanez model, (a very nice guitar), had the pickup in the traditional 175 position, away from the fingerboard end.

 

I got out the trusty inspection mirror and checked out the bracing in my 175 (one of the recent reissues with P-90s), and it has two parallel braces that run just along the outside edge of the pickup cutouts (the dogear screws go through the braces), with one cross brace under the bridge. The braces end just to the neck side of the front pickup cutout, but there is no cross brace that would prevent moving the pickup placement forward. The arch of the top almost creates a peak that the pickup sits on. moving a P-90 forward would put it on a slope, and lower it, but of course this wouldn't be a concern with a bucker, as long as you leveled the pickup ring. In fact, in your picture you can see the slope at which the pickup ring sits on Pass's guitar.

 

I know it doesn't answer Ingeneri's original question, because I have no way of knowing what drove the Heritage design, but closer inspection seems to confirm (to me, anyway) that the press mold for the top of the 175 was designed to create a place for what was originally a single P-90 close to the strings, and to make that point part of the overall arch of the top determined that the pickup had to be pulled back from the end of the fretboard. Makes sense to me that the Heritage guys, without that concern about limited adjustment and looking to maximize the tone difference between front and back in a two- pickup design, would move the front pickup forward. I know that some Heritage archtops are cross braced instead of parallel braced, which might influence pickup placement, but I don't think that is true of the models that come standard with two pickups, like the 575. (Checked my 550, and it has parallel bracing.)

 

This post is testimony to the fact that having a stack of papers to grade will drive you to almost any means of procrastination...

 

Thanks for posting this. Joe Pass plays things my ears have always wanted to hear, but never have. What a great musician. Never knew there was a Joe Pass Custom. Clearly not an ES-165 (one pickup version of 175) on this video either, as the 165 duplicates the ES-175 neck position. Note for Brent...any pickup below the 24th fret position is like a spare tire. Joke. Really.

[111518]

Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread, but while I was digging around looking for pictures of Pass-associated guitars, I found a series of videos of Roy Clark, playing his Heritage signature model, and Pass playing the pickup-at-end-of-fretboard 175, on an album of Hank Williams songs --completely new to me. Some great playing by both guitarists on the videos, even though the songs are cut with talk overs about the making of the album. I'm a major Hank Williams fan, so this is sort of heaven for me --great players, great tunes. Very cool stuff, plenty of Heritage footage.

 

I got a chance to hear Joe Pass play once at a dinner club in NY --must have been mid80s. He played his D'Aquisto, acoustic --no pickup, no mic. Sat at the table immediately in front of him --could have reached out and touched him, easily. It was one of the most phenomenal musical experiences I've ever had. What a player, what a musician.

[Flat]

Interesting info on the braces in your ES-175, 111518. I've got to get a proper mirror so I can peek at the braces in my 575. I have no idea if Joe spec'd the placement on the JP custom, or if the guitar was a gift from Gibson.

 

I'd love to hear the word from the folks at Heritage as to what guided their design about the pickup placement.

 

Thanks for the link to the Pass/Roy Clark vids. I've actually got those clips on a DVD from a TV show called "A Meeting of Masters" that a buddy sent me. It looks like everything is already on youtube, but if you're really keen on it, send me a PO box or address backchannel and I'll send you a copy.

 

I had the great fortune to hang in the back row in a couple of seminars Joe gave at GIT when I was there back in 1983/84. The word was "don't pester Joe unless you really know what you're doing" -- and I didn't (still don't) -- but I got to hang anyway and listen in. I can't remember what Joe was playing back then. More of a stock 175, I think.

 

BTW, here's where I got that photo. (Funny to see young Joe with a Martin flat-top--and hair! ;-)

 

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ux5t-oois/photo.htm

 

-Flat

[Jazzpunk]

I got a chance to hear Joe Pass play once at a dinner club in NY --must have been mid80s. He played his D'Aquisto, acoustic --no pickup, no mic. Sat at the table immediately in front of him --could have reached out and touched him, easily. It was one of the most phenomenal musical experiences I've ever had. What a player, what a musician.

 

What a great experience that must have been! Pass's comping in those Clark/Pass clips is just unreal.