Gitfiddler Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 This thread is inspired by a comment a poster made about the re-sale value of a beautiful, minty H555 currently for sale.. (Maybe for sale...maybe not...The jury is still out if that one will ever leave its current owner or not. The comment was something like..."You'll never get $2,000 for it...but it is worth it." I agree with this comment, but makes me wonder how long it will take for the guitar buying world to get wise to what we at the HOC already know...that Heritage makes one of the finest US-made guitars on the planet. Eventually the used guitar market has to wise up to the fact that these babies have all of the right stuff, mojo, tone, feel, quality woods and electronics. PLUS most of them are custom in some way or another. Any other large guitar making company with that much going for it would be demanding much higher NEW and USED prices than Heritage's. Used Heritages are a bargain in ANY economy. Yes, I realize that guitars are not a wise item for one's investment portfolio, but they are bound to be worth more as time goes by. At least that's my thinking. I'm including Heritage Archtops in this question since they, to me are absolutely the best bargains out there, compared to the competition. So the Gitfiddler question of the day is..."When will the USED Heritage guitar market wise-up?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Seacup Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I don't think Heritage takes as big a hit in the secondary market, relative to price new, as some other boutique makers. Take Hamer as an example. I would submit that you will lose more on a Hamer Monaco than you will on a Heritage H-150. For what it's worth, the market has wised up. When I joined this board, there were a lot of, shall we say, "bottom feeder friendly"-priced Heritage guitars floating around used. I bought several. Brent bought them by the truckload. Others started snapping them up. They were diamonds in the rough...well, no, they weren't. Saying they were 'in the rough' makes it sound like there was something inherently wrong with them, and there wasn't...isn't! They were diamonds buried under a layer of horseshit in the form of a lot of "in-the-know" opinion makers blowing them off as also-rans. The popular view was that the guys in the K'zoo factory were eccentric old farts building guitars for fans of Hee Haw reruns and dudes who played big old jazz boxes clean. Try and find any used Heritage under, say, $750 now. They are few and far between, and typically are the 80s hair metal models...Stats and 204DDs and original Mark Slaughter pointy things (although, if Lance keeps that thing original and holds on to it...). I don't know about you, but I have noticed that when they hit TGP with a reasonable price tag (say $1200-1400 for an H-150 in great shape), they go pretty quickly. There are a lot of other guitars that have been languishing there. In summation, I submit to the kind souls of the jury that Heritage hold their own when measuring residual value as reflected in the secondary market. It is the broadening recognition by players that they are great instruments of exceptional value (working tools for working musicians). This increase in secondary market price, I would be willing to bet, is driving primary sales as well. After all, if you can buy a new H-150 for $1800-1900 and get it the way you want it, why buy used for $1400? All we need to do is wait for the economy in general to turn around (couple of years) and once the collectors realize the players have been snapping them up for a couple of years.... Your witness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pro-fusion Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I agree about the prices of used Hamers. I'm always shocked by how cheap they are, considering the quality etc. However, as to used Heritages, I think the insane prices of used G-words are distorting the picture for some people as to what is "reasonable." There is not a single reason I can think of to pay $3,000 for a beat-up 1976 Les Paul, from an era when G-word was pumping 'em off the line like Chevrolets, and after they've been used and abused by two generations of Jimmy Page wannabes. I have an abiding affection for maple-necked Norlin Les Pauls, since that's what I grew up with, but I don't bother looking at 'em anymore. It seems like a handful of vintage shop snobs figured they could use the rising prices of the '60s guitar to hijack the Norlin guitars, and they seem to have partially succeeded. You'll notice, however, that a lot of dealers relist their Norlins endlessly on eBay without a buyer. The G-word market is way overheated and is probably in line for a crash within the next few years. If you ask me, a recent-model 150 or 157 should command a higher price than an old Norlin boat anchor, unless it's in really good shape. But that means to me that the beat-up old Gibson should sell in the $1,000-1,200 range, not that used Heritages should get inflated. These are tools for musicians, not wall art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmc7581 Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Could you guys hold it down please, with all your fancy talk about residual values and secondary markets and so on? As a Heritage-owner-wannabee, I'd just as soon anybody who hasn't waked up to the Heritage thing stay that way, thanks very much .... at least until I can score one ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millennium Maestro Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 My simple input... Heritage's have a reputation for being players guitars... they can have a difficult resale though. To me a Heritage is a keeper... If I wanted to something easier to resale I would buy a guitar that has strong name recognitionthat helps for resale. I am like alot here...I will strick to my resale difficulties and scoff at how easy and how much the similar G..Turds sell for!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut1 Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I sure hope it doesn't wise up until I've been able to purchase all the ones that I want at great prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Seacup Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I sure hope it doesn't wise up until I've been able to purchase all the ones that I want at great prices. I'm just saying that the days of GREAT prices ended about a year ago or so. I think when the economy started dropping back to rational levels a lot of people started going, "You know, it's a slab of wood, some electronics and strings..." and wondering why they were shelling out a premium for: ...among others. But, maybe that's just my take on it. I think the prices for Heritage on the used market will hold strong and maybe continue creeping up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LH575 Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Well, being that guy with H555, I suppose I'll chime in! People see these guitars as Gibson copies - and those are people that know of them! Most people do not even know of the Heritage brand. This board, and word of mouth, will make them more well known. The new website will also help word things. The more people know about them, the higher the demand, the higher the resale. It would really help things if they put their guitars into someone popular, hip, whatever. Look at their "artists" page on their website. Speaks for itself. Not knocking those players, but I don't see any them on the cover of Rolling Stone any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Well, being that guy with H555, I suppose I'll chime in! People see these guitars as Gibson copies - and those are people that know of them! Most people do not even know of the Heritage brand. This board, and word of mouth, will make them more well known. The new website will also help word things. The more people know about them, the higher the demand, the higher the resale. It would really help things if they put their guitars into someone popular, hip, whatever. Look at their "artists" page on their website. Speaks for itself. Not knocking those players, but I don't see any them on the cover of Rolling Stone any time soon. Alex Skolnick (Testament, Trans-Siberian Orchestra) is actually quite popular. Not real my cup of tea, but the younger metal heads have heard of him as well as the hardcore metal guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pro-fusion Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 and wondering why they were shelling out a premium for: Oh c'mon. That picture just screams "craftsmanship." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulk1 Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Why would we even care if the used market "wisened up"? Unless one planned on selling a lot of used Heritage. The 2 I have sold brought just what I was asking. The used ones I've purchased were just what I thought I should pay. In a perfect world the price for what I sell would be higher, but the ones I buy would be lower. Now that would be a wise market. But alas, we live in a flawed world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbonesullivan Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 It'll wise up when the Carvin and Hamer used markets wise up. Unfortunately the names Gibson, Fender, and to a lesser extent Rickenbacker and Gretsch command more resale value than heritage guitars do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurph1 Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I for one hope they don't wise up..Last time I was in Michigan I played the crap out of my 140 and when I sat it on the stand, people would look at it like it was a guitar from another planet..One guy did pick it up and play it a bit..All he could say was.."SWEET" and then he went back and started playing his EPI..My point is this..I don't care what other people think about Heritage, I know what I like..And the ol 140 fits the bill perfectly!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I dont care if they wise up and start paying less for their s/h name brand guitars or more for their s/h Heritages, Hamer's and G&L's. Im not buying a guitar based on who makes it. It just has to be a good guitar that I feel comfortable playing and checks all the boxes I personally require of it before I buy it. I really only buy new guitars for myself and a s/h purchase will just be an impulse buy with no weight of ownership attached to it. Just something to knock about with for a while then move it on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueox Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 The popular view was that the guys in the K'zoo factory were eccentric old farts building guitars for fans of Hee Haw reruns and dudes who played big old jazz boxes clean. That hit me funny, but yes, it seems that Heritage has often been looked upon as building guitars mainly for country and jazz artists. Of course, that would be wrong, as anyone who has testified with an H-150 and/or an H-535 knows for sure. Besides, there are wicked players in every genre. Dealers in collectible guitars, such as George Gruhn, talk about the McCarty-era Gibsons as having the most value, but they also talk about "snob appeal" where a certain celebrity player can raise the price of an instrument because he played it. It still seems that for many, a guitar gets cool by who plays it. To the independent Heritage owners, it is not who played it, but who built it. The results are there for anyone willing to take a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Ron Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Dunno if the used market will ever wise up. Pretty sure I won't mind if they don't. I probably bought my 150 for 2/3 of what a comparable G* would cost, and my Super Eagle for 1/2. Some (not me) could argue that these are the same or better than the original G* models. But even if the prices were closer to G*, I like the everyone-doesn't-have-one-of-these aspect of having a Heritage. Have owned a grunch of G* guitars and liked em fine, but will continue to gravitate to Parsons Street...and be one of the enlightened few, I think. On the other hand, a more enlightened used market would no doubt help the new guitar market, which would help our guys out a bit more. I like the idea of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Just play them, love them, buy them, order them, play them...... Don't worry about resale! Be happy we are all enlightened and the masses aren't yet (most NEVER will get it. But WE do!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacerX Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 To reiterate great points here: 1) Lots of folks think of Heritages as low-rent Gibson copies because they don't know any better. 2) A few years back, Heritage's quality wasn't doing the company any favors for the people who did know better. The equation went: $900 for the used guitar, $250 to fix it (fret dress, reseat and level, reset the intonation, cut and install a new nut). For me, an H-150 or H-157 is getting a SD JB within seconds of me bringing it home, but that's a consideration with G-word also, so even-steven there. G-word has had their quality problems too. It seems that now things are back on the rise, and I couldn't be happier! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredZepp Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 2) A few years back, Heritage's quality wasn't doing the company any favors for the people who did know better. The equation went: $900 for the used guitar, $250 to fix it (fret dress, reseat and level, reset the intonation, cut and install a new nut). This thinking is foreign to me . Haven't heard of but a few isolated cases. As an owner of a 1989 , 1990, 1992. 1994. 1999, 2000 models currently... this must have happened later than that? I would put quality right up there with anyone's..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalismanRich Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 For what its worth, I dont think of used Heritages as underpriced. I just think of the used Fender and Gibson markets as speculator insanity. The "vintage" market has already had it's "dotcom" days of $500,000 59 'bursts, and hopefully the stupid "investors" who saw it as an inflation hedge got their little toes burned enough to leave the music to musicians. I often troll the Guild waters as well, and you can buy Bluesbirds, X170 and Starfires all day for $1000 to $2000 with the average being in the $12-1300 range. Sound familiar? Some of these are from the 90s, some from the 60's and 70's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 This thinking is foreign to me . Haven't heard of but a few isolated cases. As an owner of a 1989 , 1990, 1992. 1994. 1999, 2000 models currently... this must have happened later than that? I would put quality right up there with anyone's..... Very much an isolated case issue. I have dad '96, '98 '03, '05, '06, '07, '08, '09 and all were perfect. Not to say there isn't the occasional lemon, but to make a blanketed statement about quality issues in any of the Heritage years is ridiculous. That said, I feel the fit, finish, and playability QC is better than ever now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LH575 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 "Alex Skolnick (Testament, Trans-Siberian Orchestra) is actually quite popular. Not real my cup of tea, but the younger metal heads have heard of him as well as the hardcore metal guys." Sorry, man. I've been playing for 20 years, been into music for 30. Skolnick, or Testament, or TSO never hit my radar until my interest in Heritage guitars. Skolnick, as great of a player as he is, is not going to sell the brand. Neither will Gary Moore and his past association with the brand, or that guy from Hee-Haw. Heritage is NOT Rock and Roll. Yes, their guitars can play anything. It is not the guitar, it is the idiot behind the wheel. Sad to say, but Rock and Roll and pop culture sells a brand 10X more than quality or playability, or the history behind the builders. The lame-ass acts on the cover of the music mags sells a brand. Geesh, I'm getting quite troll-y with this post. Not my intention. I love my 575 and my 157. My 555, well, it is a great guitar. They just need to market themselves. Right now, they rely on a dude in Jupiter, FL and Skolnick to put their names out there. It is just not enough. Jesus, I need another Guinness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydog52 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 "Alex Skolnick (Testament, Trans-Siberian Orchestra) is actually quite popular. Not real my cup of tea, but the younger metal heads have heard of him as well as the hardcore metal guys." Sorry, man. I've been playing for 20 years, been into music for 30. Skolnick, or Testament, or TSO never hit my radar until my interest in Heritage guitars. Skolnick, as great of a player as he is, is not going to sell the brand. Neither will Gary Moore and his past association with the brand, or that guy from Hee-Haw. Heritage is NOT Rock and Roll. Yes, their guitars can play anything. It is not the guitar, it is the idiot behind the wheel. Sad to say, but Rock and Roll and pop culture sells a brand 10X more than quality or playability, or the history behind the builders. The lame-ass acts on the cover of the music mags sells a brand. Geesh, I'm getting quite troll-y with this post. Not my intention. I love my 575 and my 157. My 555, well, it is a great guitar. They just need to market themselves. Right now, they rely on a dude in Jupiter, FL and Skolnick to put their names out there. It is just not enough. Jesus, I need another Guinness. The Guinness is working fine. Good post. I agree that it is in the hands of the dealer network. That's how the real work gets done. I've been in quite a few so called Heritage dealers and they don't even have one hanging on the wall. Most dealers, actually any business will try and push what they have in stock first. Basic bottom line business. My hope is that they try and build that network with more passionate dealers. They really do build a nice guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 "Alex Skolnick (Testament, Trans-Siberian Orchestra) is actually quite popular. Not real my cup of tea, but the younger metal heads have heard of him as well as the hardcore metal guys." Sorry, man. I've been playing for 20 years, been into music for 30. Skolnick, or Testament, or TSO never hit my radar until my interest in Heritage guitars. Skolnick, as great of a player as he is, is not going to sell the brand. Neither will Gary Moore and his past association with the brand, or that guy from Hee-Haw. Heritage is NOT Rock and Roll. Yes, their guitars can play anything. It is not the guitar, it is the idiot behind the wheel. Sad to say, but Rock and Roll and pop culture sells a brand 10X more than quality or playability, or the history behind the builders. The lame-ass acts on the cover of the music mags sells a brand. Geesh, I'm getting quite troll-y with this post. Not my intention. I love my 575 and my 157. My 555, well, it is a great guitar. They just need to market themselves. Right now, they rely on a dude in Jupiter, FL and Skolnick to put their names out there. It is just not enough. Jesus, I need another Guinness. Well, maybe you could come up with a solution instead of complaining about our current endorsees. You seem bright enough to realize you aren't going to get Clapton, Page, Warren Haynes, ect... SO who do you suggest that will endorse Heritage without asking for half the company and ultimately pass that bill on to us. I read a lot of complaining on this post from many different posters, but don't read about any solutions/suggestions. SO which endorser is out there that would sell Heritage guitars by THEIR name?!! If you look at the endorsers we have, they all are best in their genre... 1. Jazz: Kenny Burrell (many state he is the best traditional jazz guitarist ever), also Henry Johnson, Mimi Fox, Vince Lewis... well I think we have the archtops covered. 2. Blues: Gary Moore (love him or hate him) he is high profile. He wanted more and went Gibby, but is still recognized with Heritage 3. Rock: Alex Skolnick (again Testament & Trans-Siberian Orchestra resonates with the 20 somethings) he also has two Jazz CDs playing a 575 4. Country: Roy Clark, sorry bud but that "guy from Hee-Haw" can kick anyone's a$$ here or currently out there touring. He can play rock, blues, jazz, and country. He is probably the most talented endorsee that Heritage has. So again I pose the question WHO would you sign to endorse Heritage (for almost nothing) that is going to sell guitars off their name? I personally feel they have done a terrific job on endorsees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredZepp Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Hmmm, We've talked about this endorser thing before.... I believe it's not for us on a large scale , for reasons named.. also a 10X increase may not be what we want to see happen to a company that is probably unable to handle that, without the implementation of more mass-production techniques. We are not trying to take over the world. Or massively grow a small company that we love. Just to remain vibrant and healthy.... There are sooooo many creative options for this in today's world. And sometimes you can just write your own book... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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