When will the USED Heritage guitar market wise-up?

[LH575]

Hmmm. Who would I put the brand in the hands of?

 

Well, really it depends on how much exposure that the Heritage boys really want. I'll concentrate on how exposure might impact resale value.

 

Jonas Brothers, John Mayer, Foo Fighters, Miley Cyrus, the American Idol backup band, SNL band, Letterman's band, The Root's guitarist from Jimmy Fallon's show, Kevin Eubanks, etc - some band or artist that gets exposure in pop culture.

 

The artists that play Heritages are more of guitarist's guitarists than pop culture guitarists. The majority of them are not really doing much to expose the brand.

 

Am I saying that the Jonas Brothers are worth listening too? Hell no. But they are giving Gibson some huge exposure. Mayer, good player, not really into him, but he's doing a lot for Fender. Dave Grohl from the Foo Fighters, plays a Gibson.

 

But....

 

And a big But.

 

(and I can not lie)

 

The guys from Heritage don't seem to want to get Gibby or Fender big. They seem to want to build guitars for guitar players, not rock stars.

 

So, what are we getting at? It is the resale price. I just don't see them going much higher, because Heritage is content with their current business model, so it seems anyways.

 

And, again, let me state, I love my 575 and 157. My 555 - played it for an hour tonight, yummy.

 

I'm not knocking the brand, the players, the owners. I'm just stating that to increase the resale price, they need to get these instruments into players that get pop culture exposure.

[FredZepp]

I see, the idea that is being put forth.. is that for resale to increase, demand must increase, and perhaps endorsers are the only? way to do that...

I can see the logic in some of that , but many things could affect the demand..,,,,

It's the last part of that idea that falls apart, the endorser relationship as the only way that demand increases...

[LH575]

At the end of the day, this not an argument, just an conversation. Just throwing out ideas.

 

We have our Heritages and we love them. That is why we talk about them. Some of us try to sell them, then play them for an hour after not playing it for a month, and decide to not sell it anymore!

 

That being said, I have my eye on a 525......... It'll be my next one!

[SofaPlayer]

I wouldn't look for musicians as new endorsers. Most Heritage players just aren't well known enough to make an impact. Let the luthiers, like Jim Deurloo, Marvin Lamb, and JP Moats be the stars of a new Heritage campaign and point out the many great musicians for whom they already have built guitars. No need to mention the G brand. Anyone who gets interested will find out by himself. Always show a huge link to the website.

 

Then, as fine as the new website is, make a new interactive one. Add a much larger history section, including pictures from the beginnings in Kalamazoo until today. Every new website visitor has to understand immediately who he is dealing with.

 

Add HQ demo videos for every Heritage model available. And, most important of all, let the user design his own Heritage. Let him choose the model, the finish, woods, inlays, tailpiece and so on. The result has to be visible directly on the web, including the price. And if ready, the user must be able to either order directly through an official dealer or to print the result with all the specs, so he just has to go to the next dealer and order.

 

I'm sure this could be successful. If the new website would be too expensive, let it be done by Kalamazoo students and partly pay them with Custom guitars.

[Thundersteel]

The guys from Heritage don't seem to want to get Gibby or Fender big. They seem to want to build guitars for guitar players, not rock stars.

 

Well said!

[JeffB]

Seems like some people want the big names to play the guitars they own. I dont understand it. Is it validation you are looking for? A good guitar is a good guitar no matter who made it or who endorses it.

I like my H150 very much but I bought it over other brands without really knowing anything about Heritage. It was just the best Les Paul style guitar I found after looking for and playing lots from different manufacturer's over a three or 4 month period. I wasnt thinking dollars and cents or how cool it looked or what people would say. Didnt even research it on the web. Just put it in its case and took it home. Re sale pfffffff....... dont buy a dud to start with.

[smurph1]

Here's my take on all this..i have always been kind of a "against the grain" kind of guy..A Heritage guitar fits that bill perfectly..They are disrespected by the G-Brand purists, put down as a knock off, and reviled for the "ugly" headstock..But every time I plug into my $400 Blues Junior and crank it..I give 'em the finger and smile..The guitar does it all and does it well!! My 2 cents..

[CJTopes]

As a recent Heritage convert I can honestly say that I wish I would have known about them years ago. (oh the money I wasted ) They are definitely an untapped treasure in the guitar world. As far as the used market (or new) they probably will never get the recognition they deserve. I think a lot of the players who dont care if its a Gibson are looking to the Chinese market as they are putting out some pretty good axes and under selling everyone. If Heritage ever does start getting the big $$ on the used market it will be long after the company is gone for good. Hopefully that wont be for a very long time.....

 

Any one want to trade a Gibby 1984 studio custom for a 535...........

[Spectrum13]

Well said!

 

 

Heritage is for the player / collector and will never be a life style / investor purchase. Look at what G has protected, the shape of the horn, headstock and truss rod cover. They protect images that will never translate to better playing & sounding while using green woods and automated assembly methods.

 

Fender protects their headstock design as does Martin. The value of a name associated with the original american acoustic dreads, solid body electric, archtop /McCarty era is worth $$$ because of what it represents (represented) even when current production has little resemblence. It's marketing. Todays "Famous Amos" cooking are nothing like what they once were. Is a 2009 Ford Mustang anything like Kuz's? You can buy the package, the idea, the memory or the lifestyle when the real "pre CBS" "McCarty" or "the Boss" is too rare or expensive to acquire or play out, but don't expect it to BE more than the idea, memory or lifestyle. As W.C. Fields would say....

 

In the USA we have little appreciation of the tradition of craftmenship from Japan. A Seventy-Seven built 355 would be built better than a '59 cost more than a custom shop USA model in Japan but would not interest most HOC /TGP types as "investor-lifestyle-collector-player" due to, no major artist endorsement, advertising, website, dealer network. My guess is that should collectors and spectulators in Japan get a hold of a 555 , 150 and start accumulating as bargin player /collector instruments, we might see a boost in used Heritage pricing.

 

In 68 I purchased my G- Goldtop and replaced it in 2007 with a 150. In the 1970's I had a 345. Two years ago when I went about to replace it, even though I already had two Heritages, I purchased an Edwards 355 direct from Japan for $1100 brand new. A 555 would have been more than twice that new and about $1800 used. The Edwards is a carved top and back and prefectly crafted. As a player and collector I was delighted.

 

What the "lifestyle" and builders from Asia can't do at this time is innovate like it's 1959. Unique to Heritage is the ability to design something like the Millie, Prospect, Sweet 16, and build it as if it came out of Kzoo in the 1960s. Nobody does that.

[Doug]

Add HQ demo videos for every Heritage model available. And, most important of all, let the user design his own Heritage. Let him choose the model, the finish, woods, inlays, tailpiece and so on. The result has to be visible directly on the web, including the price. And if ready, the user must be able to either order directly through an official dealer or to print the result with all the specs, so he just has to go to the next dealer and order.

 

I'm sure this could be successful. If the new website would be too expensive, let it be done by Kalamazoo students and partly pay them with Custom guitars.

 

 

Interesting. If they have photography of all their models shot in the same position with the same lighting maybe a flash site would be possible. You could build a flash tool that allowed you to swap out pickups, fret markers, finishes and pick guards. It would be pretty cool to be able to get a glimpse of the custom guitar you want before you order it. You could actually fake in the finish options for guitars that weren't photographed.

 

On a smaller scale, you could feature a new model on the site in this manner.

[SofaPlayer]

My guess is that should collectors and spectulators in Japan get a hold of a 555 , 150 and start accumulating as bargin player /collector instruments, we might see a boost in used Heritage pricing.

 

That sounds like something that could happen anytime. If it ever does, the new prices will rise considerably, too.

[pro-fusion]

Heritage is for the player / collector and will never be a life style / investor purchase. Look at what G has protected, the shape of the horn, headstock and truss rod cover. They protect images that will never translate to better playing & sounding while using green woods and automated assembly methods.

 

I think that whole "lifestyle/investor" guitar thing is going to go belly-up sooner than you think. It's mostly driven by baby boomer nostalgia, and the cultural heart of that generational cohort is getting up there in years. Their prime earning/buying years are winding down. A handful of rich folks will still be buying the truly collectable G-words and pre-CBS Fenders, but the Norlin guitars and the Nashville knockoffs and their ilk are going to take a big hit once the "Me Generation" becomes the "Depends Generation."

 

Heritage, on the other hand, builds real guitars for real guitar players, and there's always going to be a market for that.

[Gitfiddler]

Heritage, on the other hand, builds real guitars for real guitar players, and there's always going to be a market for that.

 

 

Many, many well thought out and eloquent statements from folks here...including the very succinct comment from Pro-Fusion.

[Kuz]

Hmmm. Who would I put the brand in the hands of?

 

Well, really it depends on how much exposure that the Heritage boys really want. I'll concentrate on how exposure might impact resale value.

 

Jonas Brothers, John Mayer, Foo Fighters, Miley Cyrus, the American Idol backup band, SNL band, Letterman's band, The Root's guitarist from Jimmy Fallon's show, Kevin Eubanks, etc - some band or artist that gets exposure in pop culture.

 

The artists that play Heritages are more of guitarist's guitarists than pop culture guitarists. The majority of them are not really doing much to expose the brand.

 

Am I saying that the Jonas Brothers are worth listening too? Hell no. But they are giving Gibson some huge exposure. Mayer, good player, not really into him, but he's doing a lot for Fender. Dave Grohl from the Foo Fighters, plays a Gibson.

 

But....

 

And a big But.

 

(and I can not lie)

 

The guys from Heritage don't seem to want to get Gibby or Fender big. They seem to want to build guitars for guitar players, not rock stars.

 

So, what are we getting at? It is the resale price. I just don't see them going much higher, because Heritage is content with their current business model, so it seems anyways.

 

And, again, let me state, I love my 575 and 157. My 555 - played it for an hour tonight, yummy.

 

I'm not knocking the brand, the players, the owners. I'm just stating that to increase the resale price, they need to get these instruments into players that get pop culture exposure.

 

I think you made my point.

 

Either the real players are locked up with long term, high dollar endorsement deals, or you give away a guitar to anyone hoping they become big to just become out bid later.

 

Like it or not, the above list of incredible musicians are loyal to Heritage because of the guitars they make, not any money (well with the exception of Gary Moore who went trader on us). I think or endorsees are as passionate about Heritage guitars as we are. They don't get paid so you know they play them because they love Heritage guitars.

[PacerX]

Very much an isolated case issue. I have dad '96, '98 '03, '05, '06, '07, '08, '09 and all were perfect.

 

Not to say there isn't the occasional lemon, but to make a blanketed statement about quality issues in any of the Heritage years is ridiculous.

 

 

They were dropped by 2 big local shops because of quality issues, and I've talked personally with the owners about it. They got tired of bringing in Heritages new from the factory and then having to fix them.

 

Since that time, Heritage has certainly upped their game, and for that I couldn't be happier.

[Kuz]

They were dropped by 2 big local shops because of quality issues, and I've talked personally with the owners about it. They got tired of bringing in Heritages new from the factory and then having to fix them.

 

Since that time, Heritage has certainly upped their game, and for that I couldn't be happier.

 

What two dealers?

 

Ed Roman and who else?

 

Not to start a argument here but I got news for you, Heritage loses dealers all the time. Poeple don't know who Heritage is, thus the guitars don't sell quickly enough for the dealership, and they make up excuses for why they don't sell.

 

I appreciate the honest dealers (several on this site) which have stated they dropped Heritage within the last year just because they weren't selling. And the Heritages weren't selling had nothing to do with quality but everything to do with "name".

 

I generally agree that Heritage are more consistent now, and if anything better QC now. But Heritage's area of biggest improvement has been concerning turn around time for new orders!

[PacerX]

What two dealers?

 

Ed Roman and who else?[/b][/i]

 

Ah no... not Ed Roman. I wouldn't buy a guitar from that clown if he were the last guitar seller on earth.

 

I'll reply with the names of both via PM.

 

As a hint, I live in Michigan, BTW.

 

 

Not to start a argument here but I got news for you, Heritage loses dealers all the time. Poeple don't know who Heritage is, thus the guitars don't sell quickly enough for the dealership, and they make up excuses for why they don't sell. [/b][/i]

 

You are trying to start an argument here, or getting very offended about something that was undeniably true. I know these guys personally, have done business with them for years and years, held the very guitars they spoke of in my hands. When they take the time to show you a nut that wasn't cut anywhere near properly, or really bad fretwork on a brand new guitar, or a new guitar with a neck pickup that doesn't work, that speaks volumes.

 

To be a good friend to Heritage does not mean endless fanboi cheerleader action about them. When hard truths come up, a good friend tells the truth so they can do something about it.

 

 

 

I generally agree that Heritage are more consistent now, and if anything better QC now. But Heritage's area of biggest improvement has been concerning turn around time for new orders!

 

"Biggest"...

 

If that's what you believe, fine... I have no argument with that. In my opinion, building better guitars has been their biggest improvement, and the one that will have the greater impact.

[FredZepp]

Stuff Happens....

But my experience with Heritage, and I like to buy the older ones, is that any issues are far in between.

But I trust that you witnessed some with some issues.....

 

I may just be biased as a cheerleader for them, but that's one thing I like about the HOC, ....I'm in a group of chearleaders...

Love the guitars and appreciate the people that make them...

[PacerX]

Stuff Happens....

But my experience with Heritage, and I like to buy the older ones, is that any issues are far in between.

But I trust that you witnessed some with some issues.....

 

I may just be biased as a cheerleader for them, but that's one thing I like about the HOC, ....I'm in a group of chearleaders...

Love the guitars and appreciate the people that make them...

 

I think we all want what is best for Heritage, we might just have different ways of showing it, but Heritage has a special place in all our hearts.

[FredZepp]

Heritage has a special place in all our hearts.

Cool....!! Agreed

[Kuz]

Pacer,

We have the up most respect for you and your claims here.

 

But you have to do the same for us.

 

I have said that the occasional bad apple comes out of Parsons St., ( or did come out in your case, in prior years), but to paint with a broad brush that it was a rabid problem with most Heritage guitars in the past is just not true.

 

I think you have seen enough testaments from people that have owned older Heritages to prove our point.

 

Let's agree to disagree. They occasionally have in the past and will in the future make a lemon, but for a dealer to drop them due to all the guitars being of poor quality.... (the dealer can always reject a guitar and send it back on Heritage's dime!

[mark555]

Just a few points from a good thread.

• Four years ago I bought a beautiful 555 from a guitar shop in Leeds for £800. this was because no one wanted to buy it and it had been on the wall for three months, I chose my moment and offered them £100 less than they had it on sale at. Comparable Gibsons selling at £1800.
  
• Dealers over here won't stock Heritge because they just can't sell them to the buying players, who would rather, for any number of reasons put their money into Gibson, when in reality many guitars are better than Gibson. Heritage, Guild, and Hamer have all produced fantastic guitars. So, adversly, because so few Heritage guitars are available in the UK, discerning buyers end up paying a higher price now for them because they are few and far between. I have not seen a 150 in a British store for years
  
• I do not want prices to rise, I want them to stay affordable. When you look at any solid body guitar, it is just a joining of different pieces of wood with electrics in it. G brand guitars are just artificially inflated because people are silly enough to pay the price they ask. All this about mojo is just rubbish, it's the player who makes the difference.
  
• Heritage is probably a managable company. If you run any bisiness and want huge production, eventually the factory becomes a monster that has to be fed. When quiet times come for the company, you either lay people off, cut back production or cut your prices and lose integrity. The other option is to produce cheaper models and lessen the brand value, look at the terrible Gibson melody makers and Les paul juniors they are putting out right now.
  

 

I really do not care who does or does not endorse Heritage, I think Gary Moore and others should takeMY advice, as I buy guitars that are the best guitars for the job and offer the best value for money. Did Gary Moore not sell Peter Green's Les Paul because he needed the money? He owned the holy grail of Les Pauls and he sold it - what does that tell you? By the way, I have never bought a guitar of any brand that I have not had to take to the local guitar tec' to improve to my required standards, be it new or used. I was always in love with Gibson, but when I first discovered Heritage and found out who they are and what they are about, I just thought it made common sense to buy their products and save hundreds of £'s. True, I am the guy who will have anything that is different to whatever everyone else is having, it's just my nature to be an individual. The fact that a player like Kenny Burrell plays a Heritage reinforces my feelings, but I am sure a player of his stature is not in it just for the money, I hope not anyway.

 

I have always struggled financially and have not been able to acquire nice collections, but I am happy for others to do so and I have been the recipient of the kindness of those who have wonderful collections when they have invited me to their homes to play their guitars. So, a collection is not on the cards for me, but working tools are and I choose Heritage for the 2 x humbucker configuration and quality and beauty of the guitar. It stands up and passes the test.

 

I want Heritage to stay exactly where it is in the market, let those who gain their feeling of self worth by what brand they play, drive, what ever, pay premium prices for lesser quality goods, and let me be able to buy a fantastic guitar at a price which is realistic. At any one time the market will get what it can for a product, and any product, regardless of brand, is worth only what people are prepared to pay for it, regardless of why. But I do wish the headstock was a more aesthetically pleasing design.....

[Kuz]

Just a few points from a good thread.

• Four years ago I bought a beautiful 555 from a guitar shop in Leeds for £800. this was because no one wanted to buy it and it had been on the wall for three months, I chose my moment and offered them £100 less than they had it on sale at. Comparable Gibsons selling at £1800.
  
• Dealers over here won't stock Heritge because they just can't sell them to the buying players, who would rather, for any number of reasons put their money into Gibson, when in reality many guitars are better than Gibson. Heritage, Guild, and Hamer have all produced fantastic guitars. So, adversly, because so few Heritage guitars are available in the UK, discerning buyers end up paying a higher price now for them because they are few and far between. I have not seen a 150 in a British store for years
  
• I do not want prices to rise, I want them to stay affordable. When you look at any solid body guitar, it is just a joining of different pieces of wood with electrics in it. G brand guitars are just artificially inflated because people are silly enough to pay the price they ask. All this about mojo is just rubbish, it's the player who makes the difference.
  
• Heritage is probably a managable company. If you run any bisiness and want huge production, eventually the factory becomes a monster that has to be fed. When quiet times come for the company, you either lay people off, cut back production or cut your prices and lose integrity. The other option is to produce cheaper models and lessen the brand value, look at the terrible Gibson melody makers and Les paul juniors they are putting out right now.
  

 

I really do not care who does or does not endorse Heritage, I think Gary Moore and others should takeMY advice, as I buy guitars that are the best guitars for the job and offer the best value for money. Did Gary Moore not sell Peter Green's Les Paul because he needed the money? He owned the holy grail of Les Pauls and he sold it - what does that tell you? By the way, I have never bought a guitar of any brand that I have not had to take to the local guitar tec' to improve to my required standards, be it new or used. I was always in love with Gibson, but when I first discovered Heritage and found out who they are and what they are about, I just thought it made common sense to buy their products and save hundreds of £'s. True, I am the guy who will have anything that is different to whatever everyone else is having, it's just my nature to be an individual. The fact that a player like Kenny Burrell plays a Heritage reinforces my feelings, but I am sure a player of his stature is not in it just for the money, I hope not anyway.

 

I have always struggled financially and have not been able to acquire nice collections, but I am happy for others to do so and I have been the recipient of the kindness of those who have wonderful collections when they have invited me to their homes to play their guitars. So, a collection is not on the cards for me, but working tools are and I choose Heritage for the 2 x humbucker configuration and quality and beauty of the guitar. It stands up and passes the test.

 

I want Heritage to stay exactly where it is in the market, let those who gain their feeling of self worth by what brand they play, drive, what ever, pay premium prices for lesser quality goods, and let me be able to buy a fantastic guitar at a price which is realistic. At any one time the market will get what it can for a product, and any product, regardless of brand, is worth only what people are prepared to pay for it, regardless of why. But I do wish the headstock was a more aesthetically pleasing design.....

 

Mark you were doing perfect until the headstock issue... I personally think the headstock is an improvement (visually & functionally).

[PacerX]

Pacer,

We have the up most respect for you and your claims here.

 

But you have to do the same for us.

 

I have said that the occasional bad apple comes out of Parsons St., ( or did come out in your case, in prior years), but to paint with a broad brush that it was a rabid problem with most Heritage guitars in the past is just not true.

 

I think you have seen enough testaments from people that have owned older Heritages to prove our point.

 

Let's agree to disagree. They occasionally have in the past and will in the future make a lemon, but for a dealer to drop them due to all the guitars being of poor quality.... (the dealer can always reject a guitar and send it back on Heritage's dime!

 

 

You can decide to agree to disagree if you like, but that isn't going to make you any less wrong.

 

And... who is "our"? Do you have a squirrel in your pocket?

[FredZepp]

You can decide to agree to disagree if you like, but that isn't going to make you any less wrong.

 

And... who is "our"? Do you have a squirrel in your pocket?

I'm an "our".... "We" are a community of Heritage aficionado's.

To visit guitar owner clubs and try to create conflict by then decribing whatever flaws you perceive in the the products they own. And refusing to just admit to the disagreement, as though yours is the only reality, seems a futile , negative and basically a counter-produtive exercise.

Seemed to me that Kuz was making an attempt to show civility.