When will the USED Heritage guitar market wise-up?

[111518]

I'm an "our".... "We" are a community of Heritage aficionado's.

To visit guitar owner clubs and try to create conflict by then decribing whatever flaws you perceive in the the products they own. And refusing to just admit to the disagreement, as though yours is the only reality, seems a futile , negative and basically a counter-produtive exercise.

Seemed to me that Kuz was making an attempt to show civility.

 

I respectfully disagree. Pacer said that he has had discussions with dealers who explained why they had made a decision to drop the line. That is not attempting to create conflict, that is reporting information, and information certainly relevant to this discussion thread. To deny Pacers report would require evidence that the dealers that Pacer X offers to name in private had not dropped the line, or had not dropped it because of quality issues. I've seen no one offer such evidence.

 

I can't enter the discussion on fact, because I don't know any midwestern dealers, but I understand Pacer's frustration with the pattern of this discussion. When Kuz says that he has not encountered quality issues himself, I'm very happy that he has had a consistently good experience, but that does not in any way address Pacer's point. There are, in fact, a number of people on this board who love the guitars and the tradition, and yet report the consistent need to refret, replace nuts, etc. --all things that are death to the profit of a dealer already forced to discount, and issues that undermine Heritage's efforts to present itself as a quality alternative to the better advertised brands. (From a dealer's perspective it doesn't matter that Gibsons also have these problems --Heritage is Avis, and has to have better quality to uphold its claim as the true bearer of the flame.)

 

There is much anecdotal evidence to support Pacer's report of quality-control issues, as there is anecdotal evidence to disagree with it. There is no justification for using those anecdotal reports to dismiss the accuracy of his reports of conversations that he has had with dealers. Given that he returns to the board, cares about the guitars and the company, I can only suppose that his motivation is to voice concerns that the company should recognize the damage that it does by a failure to monitor qc as closely as it might. The goal we share is a co. that survives by building great guitars; we can disagree about whether that goal is best served by offering or avoiding honest critique, but that is different than suggesting the critique is dishonest or uninformed or inaccurate.

 

It is not civil to dismiss as inaccurate a person's report of his experience --it is calling that person a liar, and I understand Pacer's anger. All good people here, and I certainly hope we can move on to more civil ground, but in my estimation it is not fair to suggest that Pacer X has any intent other than to honestly participate in a discussion about the market for used Heritage guitars.

[FredZepp]

But I trust that you witnessed some with some issues.....

We have the up most respect for you and your claims here

I have said that the occasional bad apple comes out of Parsons St

They occasionally have in the past and will in the future make a lemon,

I do believe that we are simply disagreeing on the size of this issue

not to totally

dismiss the accuracy of his reports of conversations that he has had with dealers

 

But if we can't agree to disagree,..... then we must disagree to disagree......

Which I think means we agree...

 

I just own too many older Heritage guitars , to feel that a blanket statement about their former quality is warranted.

But hey , maybe the nut was replaced on all of mine already....

[Kuz]

OK, I am putting an end to this. HOC is a place where ALL opinions can be heard & shared.

 

First, I am sorry if I offended anyone OR gave the impression that anyone was not telling the truth. Pacer and I have spoke off line about this and I have offered to discuss my experiences with him live.

 

I do believe what he said happened. Two dealers had some bad experiences and dropped the Heritage line.

 

But I am also telling the truth where my dealer (Hauer Music, Dayton OH) has never had these issues. In fact, 3 of the employees (killer jazz players) all own Heritages. I have owned 10 Heritages myself and all have been perfect. I have played all the Heritage guitars that have come through Hauer Music, all fine.

 

I stand behind what I have said, and I am a little offended to be called a Heritage Cheerleader. I am not so naive to think an occasional bad guitar comes out of Heritage. But I personally have not experience it ( I guess I am 10 for 10. Pretty good odds!)

 

I think the problem we are having here are two points:

 

1. Expectations: Heritages are some of the prettiest guitars made BUT they can't compete in overall fit in finish to a CNC mass produced guitar. Your Heritage guitar will have a TINY flec of color in the binding or maybe a TINY file mark on the fretboard. A PRS or a Fender won't have these tiny imperfections (I wouldn't call them imperfections but handmade marks)

 

2. Applications: Heritage guitars can play all styles of music, but are really intended to be "modern Vintage" guitars. I have owned and played many vintage guitars that people pay $10K and more for. People play these guitars and I am amazed at how bad the set ups are. Horrible frets, bad action, ect. All my Heritages are perfect and set up at 3.5/64ths (Yoslate can attest to this) and play perfect. My point, is Heritages wer never meant to play or sound like an Ibanez Jem or PRS guitar. They were meant to be made the way they were in 50s & 60s. AND that is exactly how they are made (except they play better).

 

I appreciate everyone that has voiced in to agree with me and I appreciate everyone's opinion that has disagreed.

I am willing to agree to disagree (but I stand 100% behind what I have said).

Are you willing to do the same and stand behind what you said?

 

The olive branch has been offered and let's get back to freely offering or comments without fear of verbal conflict.

[allmantrout]

I wonder what the group thinks are the "investor grade" Heritage guitars?

 

Are they the first 10 made of a particular model? Are they a certain color? Made with certain options? A certain era? Are they solid versus semi hollow versus hollow body electrics? Acoustics? The Rarest? The limited additions? The H357? Gary Moore? Other Artists?

 

For those in "the know", what are the top 10 Investor Grade Heritage guitars made heretofore in your opinion?

[pegleg32]

An investor grade Heritage is the one I am thinking about buying, a non-investor grade Heritage is the one I sold last week. A great Heritage is the one I am currently playing.

[Kuz]

An investor grade Heritage is the one I am thinking about buying, a non-investor grade Heritage is the one I sold last week. A great Heritage is the one I am currently playing.

 

True. I never buy any guitar with the thought of it as an investment. I play them, I don't collect them.

 

Honestly, if you looking for an incredible great sounding guitar, then Heritage is your guitar.

 

If you are looking for an investment guitar.... well are their any NEW guitars that are not depreciating now (PRS do, Hamers do, Gibbies do, Fenders do, McInturff do BIG time, ect......)

[Jazzpunk]

This thread is inspired by a comment a poster made about the re-sale value of a beautiful, minty H555 currently for sale.. (Maybe for sale...maybe not...The jury is still out if that one will ever leave its current owner or not.

The comment was something like..."You'll never get $2,000 for it...but it is worth it."

 

I agree with this comment, but makes me wonder how long it will take for the guitar buying world to get wise to what we at the HOC already know...that Heritage makes one of the finest US-made guitars on the planet.

 

Ya know, that type of comment is fairly common in the classifieds here. "Killer guitar...price is kinda high".

 

My question is this, if we already know that Heritage makes one of the finest guitars on the planet but think they are often priced to high than who exactly is going to pay more for them?!

[Gitfiddler]

Ya know, that type of comment is fairly common in the classifieds here. "Killer guitar...price is kinda high".

 

My question is this, if we already know that Heritage makes one of the finest guitars on the planet but think they are often priced to high than who exactly is going to pay more for them?!

 

Um...guilty as charged, your honor!

 

I paid a premium (top dollar) for my lovely pre-owned Heritage 535 Goldtop Fat Neck Phat Cat. Just had to have it. The justification for me was that the (relative) high price I paid for this Heritage was still WAY lower than anything else even close on the market...new or used.

 

And man, this gitfiddle is a real blues screamer!!

 

[Kuz]

Um...guilty as charged, your honor!

 

I paid a premium (top dollar) for my lovely pre-owned Heritage 535 Goldtop Fat Neck Phat Cat. Just had to have it. The justification for me was that the (relative) high price I paid for this Heritage was still WAY lower than anything else even close on the market...new or used.

 

And man, this gitfiddle is a real blues screamer!!

 

 

One of the finest 535 I have seen and was worth every penny you paid for it!!!!

[Kuz]

"This thread is inspired by a comment a poster made about the re-sale value of a beautiful, minty H555 currently for sale.. (Maybe for sale...maybe not...The jury is still out if that one will ever leave its current owner or not.

 

The comment was something like..."You'll never get $2,000 for it...but it is worth it."

 

I agree with this comment, but makes me wonder how long it will take for the guitar buying world to get wise to what we at the HOC already know...that Heritage makes one of the finest US-made guitars on the planet."

 

I am the one who stated the comment "You'll never get $2,000 for it...but it is worth it." I think I am really being misunderstood lately (an inherent forum internet problem. I was speaking live I think people would understand me better.)

 

I was actually paying the seller a COMPLIMENT like saying that guitar is worth a lot more than you will get selling it, due to it's great quality and color. I was NOT saying he was pricing too high or asking to much. I was more upset that he wouldn't get $2K for such an exquisite instrument!

[FredZepp]

Ya know, that type of comment is fairly common in the classifieds here. "Killer guitar...price is kinda high".

 

My question is this, if we already know that Heritage makes one of the finest guitars on the planet but think they are often priced to high than who exactly is going to pay more for them?!

I think that the HOC pretty much gets the best deals on the used ones anywhere...,

because there are so many of us , using so many resources, that know the models and options. And we talk amongst ourselves about the details, particularly if it seems like most will be in agreement and it makes sense.

( The 2K example was a case of a "maybe" for sale , that had no price at all. So it was pretty much left open to discussion. I suggested then , that would make me start at my lowest bid....)

And don't concern yourself with being misunderstood too much, Kuz. I think that you make fine sense , as you've seen lots of different ones go through here by now. And I don't think that you've made comments where we can't interpret where you're comin' from....

 

But yes, that's why I seem to keep buying more of these Heritage beauties right now. These prices seem too good to last...

[Jazzpunk]

I think that the HOC pretty much gets the best deals on the used ones anywhere...,

because there are so many of us , using so many resources, that know the models and options. And we talk amongst ourselves about the details, particularly if it seems like most will be in agreement and it makes sense.

 

I tend to see Heritage guitars go for higher prices here on the HOC than I do on eBay. I think we as a group are actually more willing to pay a little more for a Heritage than others.

 

My point was that if we are the high bidders and bids are still low, than who is this group that's going to 'wisen up'?!

[FredZepp]

My point was that if we are the high bidders and bids are still low, than who is this group that's going to 'wisen up'?!

 

Oh , I see what you're sayin'.

It's a really tough market for a lot of things right now.

But we keep a pretty good eye on that ebay thing,

... there's a point where it's hard to keep buying even the great deals. And the sellers are rightfully shocked when they don't sell.

 

What kills me..., Brent keeps coming up with these hard to resist guitars... tests my willpower regularly..

[Mikenov]

I have bought my share of Heritage guitars and guitar gear in general durring this economic downturn. The deals are crazy. Or at least they seem that way since I bought a heritage before things went to shit and when I think I can get another guitar of similar value for that much less I feel like I gotta do it. It's a compulsion really. The prices are low and if unemployment continues at this rate they may go lower.

That, after all is the real driver I think. People out of work selling anything worth enough to help out.

That being said, we know what things are going for because, raise your hand and come forward, there are plenty of us here that as part of our daily routine doing a google search of heritage guitars on CL. Or we check Ebay regularly for Heritage guitars. Or we check the gear page or Harmony central or the LPF (which for some reason seems to de-activate every login I ever create there..who blacklisted me?? anyone? anyone?) Hey, I was just curious what the hub bub was all about over there at the LPF. I see how you all are looking at me!

I am looking for guitars when my bank account is drained and I have two new guitars sitting at my house. What the hell is wrong with me? Not germaine.. what is germaine is I think I have a good handle on what prices are for heritage guitars because I study their value like a commodities trader studies pork bellies (microscope or the gross invasive way?? you decide), or oil reserves, or whatever.

Ultimately, I have allot of love to give an for some reason I think I can love 10 guitars at once... why not try 11? Ever seen Big Love on HBO? Same concept except my guitar wives never get jelous and pretty much stay in the case until I need their loving touch(or the other way around). OK, who was saying Mikenov never says much???

[FredZepp]

I study their value like a commodities trader studies pork bellies

I am looking for guitars when my bank account is drained and I have two new guitars sitting at my house. What the hell is wrong with me?

 

+1 Dude , I can relate. It is a field of bargains waiting to be plucked...

[Jazzpunk]

It's a really tough market for a lot of things right now. And the sellers are rightfully shocked when they don't sell.

 

That's for sure! I've had to unload a few things this year in order to get the Heritage guitars I wanted and man did it smart! Took a hit on each sale but it was worth it in the end!

[brentrocks]

That's for sure! I've had to unload a few things this year in order to get the Heritage guitars I wanted and man did it smart! Took a hit on each sale but it was worth it in the end!

 

I have been trying to unload my Korina V for a couple weeks now to fund a new Heritage...i thought it would sell quickly.....i bet a year ago it would have sold in less than 48 hours, but that is the way it goes.

[smurph1]

Um...guilty as charged, your honor!

 

I paid a premium (top dollar) for my lovely pre-owned Heritage 535 Goldtop Fat Neck Phat Cat. Just had to have it. The justification for me was that the (relative) high price I paid for this Heritage was still WAY lower than anything else even close on the market...new or used.

 

And man, this gitfiddle is a real blues screamer!!

 

gosh that's purty!! Are we done fighting now? LOL

[pegleg32]

gosh that's purty!! Are we done fighting now? LOL

 

Jeez, did this ever turn into a long running thread!!! Can it really end like this? LOL

[pegleg32]

NO!!! I'm putting my PRS on the Bay today, don't expect to get much for it. Luckily I don't have much in it. I am already having regrets after having polished it and played it after a long rest in it's case. I sometimes forget how nice the guitars I don't play will play if I just get them out of the case. It's kind of like being introduced to a long lost friend.

[tulk1]

NO!!! I'm putting my PRS on the Bay today, don't expect to get much for it. Luckily I don't have much in it. I am already having regrets after having polished it and played it after a long rest in it's case. I sometimes forget how nice the guitars I don't play will play if I just get them out of the case. It's kind of like being introduced to a long lost friend.

Which PRSi?

[pegleg32]

It's a plain jane Custom 22. A good players guitar, but no where near like Kuz's beauties.

[Jazzpunk]

I have been trying to unload my Korina V for a couple weeks now to fund a new Heritage...i thought it would sell quickly.....i bet a year ago it would have sold in less than 48 hours, but that is the way it goes.

 

Bummer. I took quite a hit on my Fargen Dual Classic on the 'ol fleabay but it paid for my 525 so more than worth it to me!

[lpdeluxe]

I can't resist adding a few remarks.

 

I think the person who said that G word (great euphemism) guitars are overpriced is correct. The phenomenon started when a few musicians (NOT collectors!) began playing out-of-production LPs, and the marketers saw an opening for increasing their profits. Since then, the inflation of used guitar prices has become a feeding frenzy, and has little or nothing to do with intrinsic value (unless you really believe a run-of-the-mill, Norlin-era Deluxe is **really** worth $9K). The lesser guitars are being bidden up for the simple reason that the better ones are already gone, or sky-high in price. In other words, the Melody Makers and Jrs (never great guitars in the first place) are standing in for Standards, in the dealers' minds. They love the money they were making, and want to continue the ride. The buying public can no longer support their habit, so things may change.

 

In the real world, to which all this madness will some day return, an instrument has an intrinsic value, based on quality (as measured a zillion ways), appearance, and utility as an instrument. When everybody who lusted after an LP Special when they were a teenager finally acquires one, the market collapses. I used that model more or less at random, but it's true for all of them. A friend has a beautiful, fully restored '57 lemon yellow Chevrolet Bel Air convertible with a white top. He has seen the potential resale price drop by at least half over the last few years, as members of the generation who "had to have" a '57 Chevy either bought their own, or died. In the future, there will be no replacement generation in love with the '57 Chevy.

 

The same is true of the guitar bubble: the really primo G words are from the late '50s, with a few quirkish reappearances (think Slash), but they won't be icons forever, as a number of current collectors will no doubt learn. Remember, in the past, there have been banjo and mandolin collectors, too, and I would guess that any large collection of those instruments is rapidly depreciating, until only the genuine players --those with actual musical value -- are left. Naturally, some of those will go for big bucks (look at the market for Stradivari violins) but the rank and file will not.

 

We have seen other brands come and go in their popularity. Gretsch, for example: I bought a used '63 Chet Atkins Country Gent for $425 with original case in 1982, and sold it for $3100 in 2007. Sounds good -- but had I waited a year, I would still be sitting on it, or would have been forced to sell it for substantially less. At one time, this year/model was widely known as the "George Harrison" Country Gentleman, and commanded high prices. Well, that fad went the way of all fads, and these days people recognize the Gretsches for what they are: idiosyncratic guitars, the design of which was driven more by marketing consideration than by functionality, with peculiar controls, difficult to service neck joints, and hardware that could not be upgraded. In other words, their intrinsic value has come to the fore.

 

On the other side of the coin are Heritage and Guild: well-made guitars, of robust build and quality materials, that have never gotten the boost from the bubble in G and F guitar prices, for capricious reasons. I think their resale value more closely resembles their intrinsic value, even though many people love them (a close friend has a floating pool of Guild flat tops -- sometimes he has twelve strings, sometimes only sixers, but I can depend on it that, the next time I see him, he will no longer have one I remember and will, instead, have his latest and, temporarily, greatest Guild).

 

So it's not so much that Heritage guitars are under-priced, as that other brands are ridiculously over-priced. We can't control fads, but we can watch approvingly as those instruments of inflated worth come back down to earth.

[zookroo1]

Well said lpdeluxe, well said. After reading that, there just isn't much else to say...