Final Conclusions -Jay & Heritage

[High Flying Bird]

Here are two pics of a buddy's guitars.  The first is a 550 and the second is the 150 that he put a ding in the headstock of.

 

http://www.ronwarren.com/heritage2/img_6232_std.jpg[/img]

http://www.ronwarren.com/heritage2/img_6249_std.jpg[/img]

[doggy1972]

Also... the maple top peeking out from under the binding is standard

Yep. Mine is exactly the same.Shoddy but, if thats how they make em.......

[brentrocks]

For a $2000+ NEW guitar, i could see your gripe (although its not bad, IMO)...if it were used, i would say oh well, not bad.

[Kazwell]

Graham said this is how they have always made them and even the Cust Shop R.I. guitars are made this way. I would appreciate your feedback see next pic.

 

Evidently that is called a "moon" believe it or not, and it is found in the cutaway of most of the LP's and well made LP copies I have seen. My H-150 also has one.

 

Never really understood the "why" or "how", as to what it's doing there in the first place.

[Paul P]

It looks to me like the red appearing in the top has somehow seeped through from the side

wood under the binding ?  It doesn't look like an spraying error unless they spray the sides

and back after they've done the front and applied the binding.

 

Paul P

[Dick Seacup]

Evidently that is called a "moon" believe it or not, and it is found in the cutaway of most of the LP's and well made LP copies I have seen. My H-150 also has one.

 

Never really understood the "why" or "how", as to what it's doing there in the first place.

 

I think that you see that little section of maple because the binding is put on after the top is carved.  If you look at the thickness (height is probably a better dimension) of the binding, you see that it's constant all the way around.  Take a bound-top Hamer (if you can) and look at the binding.  They start with taller binding that goes from the maple-mahogany joint to the top of the maple cap, and they put it on before they carve the top.  That way, the binding covers the joint and matches the top contour perfectly (not that Heritage binding doesn't match the contour).  The trade off for doing it the way Hamer does it is that the binding in the bouts is noticeably thicker than along the rest of the body edge and to me that looks strange. 

 

It's a tradeoff...do you want a big honking piece of binding in there and no moon, or do you want the binding done the way it's always been done and live with the moon? 

[PacerX]

Boy howdy, if that thing had full size pickups in it, I'd be happy to take it off your hands.

[Dick Seacup]

If you look carefully at the fifth and sixth pictures of this P90 Goldtop Gibby on TGP, you will see the maple cap.  I don't see any headstock ears, misplaced stain, sanding marks or finish cracks, though.  :-

 

EDIT:

 

Then again, this R9 Classic has different color and grain headstock ears in the fourth picture.

 

EDIT:

 

Here's a '72 Gibson Goldtop P90.  If you scroll down, you can clearly see the "moon" in the bout, as well as the offcolor headstock ears (although not nearly as noticeable as in the pictures you posted).

 

My point isn't that you should live with it, but that it really is the way that they've always been made.  I don't think anyone ever points it out because it is what it is.  The sanding marks, binding stain and finish crack are over the top, though.

[Heritage525]

I own 5 Heritage guitars, 137, 150, 525, 535, 550 and have owned 4 others.  None of them had the finish flaws that yours has.  I would be pissed if it were me, now, we all know that guitars are for playing, but, I love looking at mine as well.  If you are not happy, send it back to Jay, I have purchased all of mine from him, as well as G&L and Heritage amps.  I have never been disatisfied with is business practices. 

[Thundersteel]

When you pick up the guitar and play it, but are still thinking about the finish flaws when you do, then you won't be truly happy with it.

 

If you pick it up and don't even think about the flaws when it's played, then it's a keeper.

[Kuz]

Thank you to everyone that gave an opinion. Everyone's input was truly appreciated and informative. That's why I love this place.[/b] I have talked with Jay & Heritage and want to start a new post because Jay gave me some updates on Heritage QC & prices. I title it "Final conclusion - Jay & Heritage"

[Kuz]

Thank you to everyone that gave an opinion. Everyone's input was truly appreciated and informative. That's why I love this place.  I have talked with Jay & Heritage and want to start a new post because Jay gave me some updates on Heritage QC & prices. I title it "Final conclusion - Jay & Heritage"

[brentrocks]

Unfortunately, I have. In fact, I see it almost every day.

 

Don't the others (Ren, Bill, etc.) still work on these as well? Does Heritage have any kind of QA process? Those "problems" should be easy to spot at each stage of the production process. They should also have a final inspection before they are boxed for shipping. I would think the dealerships would send those back as well, but I know they probably won't.

 

A lot of the things we see now-a-days, and have seen in the vintage years are really quite the same.  I'm not trying to defend or inflate, but many things, like on Kuz's guitar, these guitars are being built the same way they have been built for over 50 yrs!!!  (at least at Heritage)  things like that are gonna happen, like i said i'm not saying it is ok to have flaws, but it is so hard to draw that "acceptable" line.  i dont know, being a used guitar buyer, maybe i should just keep my big mouth shut??  Kuz, you have a beautiful guitar and i'm sure it plays great...that's all i'm gonna say (off the soapbox)

[Gitfiddler]

Kuz~ Good luck with your decision and options.  I had posted this absolutely brilliant dissertation about your guitar issues, Heritage, Gibson progeny, QC, Goldtops, Photos of similar guitars, Luthiery, Soapbars, Soap Operas, etc., but my slow A$$ PC deleted it!!!!!  >

 

Anyway, if you are unhappy with the guitar now, chances are you always will.  Hopefully you can get a replacement instrument or at least, an offer to refinish/repair the current guitar to your satisfaction.

 

 

Good luck.

[Kuz]

Thank you to everyone who gave me their input about my new 150CM Gold top with Lollar P90s.

 

JAY

I emailed Jay last night with a description and pictures of my finish concerns. We talked for about 40mins about Heritage guitars (pre-shut down vs new post- shut down), the annual production of Heritage guitars, the new price list, and of course my guitar.

 

-My guitar: Jay said the head stock pieces need to be set with reverse grain and the stain is not stain but natural mahogany with a filler because it is so porous. He said this is very typical of a natural finish mahogany neck/headstock and the reverse grain makes it more stable (but more contrast). So I guess I can live with that. The sanding marks again he said are  more evident and typical on a natural finish vintage Gibby or Heritage. This is on the back and since that's how they used to make them, I'll live with that. The red dye/paint he said he didn't know what it was but it was not rare or uncommon (don't know if I buy that). And finally the premature finish crack he said he didn't if it came from the factory that way or if it happened during shipping. The good news is he said they can easily fix this by re-nitro finishing the cracked area.

      He also made me think of why I bought the guitar- TONE. He said he has many, many perfect finished Hamers but 9/10 times people buy the Heritages instead (after comparing the tones through an amp) and over look the finish issues. I say I would agree with that.

 

-New Heritage guitars

Good new! Vince has assured better final inspection finish QC. And Jay said the new guitars do look much better.

 

He also had very good news on the new price list. Jay said after heard the huge price increase at NAMM he canceled all his orders. He asked for a one-on-one with Vince and convince Vince to lower the price increase from 12% wholesale increase to only 5%. He said he could speak for all dealers but that is what price he will get. Jay said Heritage usually has an average price of 2-3% annually so this is not that much more. So yes, no $500 increase on new guitars with better QC.

 

Everyone is working every day. Jay said this never happened before (no more extended 1 month fishing or hunting trips)

 

New modern awesome web site in 6-8 months.

 

New pumped up advertising and signature guitars from endorsees (Rick Derringer model) in 1-2 years.

 

HERITAGE

 

Jay said he would e-mail my concerns & pics to Vince and Ren, and told them I would be calling them. I spoke with Ren (Vince was off ill with the flu) but he had not seen the pics yet so I had to describe the guitar to him.

Ren said exactly the same as Jay about the headstock wood wings and the binding not completely over the maple cap on the cutaway.

He said the sanding would show up more on a natural finish mahogany with filler/sealer than maple guitar, but because of the handmade nature some sanding my be more evident & different from guitar to guitar.

He said he would have to look at the red dye/paint and had no idea what it could be. He said it may be able to be buffed and then reshot with nitro.

He said they probably could fix the finish check in the top.

 

 

SO WHAT HAVE I DECIDED TO DO

Keep the guitar. The tone is too good and it has mojo. I really wasn't a believer in mojo but this guitar plays & sounds like a dream and has some serious handmade mojo. Don't get me wrong I wish it were finished perfect but if it resembles a vintage Gibby and sounds like one, but plays 10x better I just can't send her back.

Ren is going to review the pics and I am to call him Monday. He said (depending on what he sees) they might be able to fix the finish check and the strange red dye/paint flaw.

 

All and All I guess I'm satisfied. Heritage said they will look and hopefully fix some of the issues.

 

Heritage will never be PRS or Hamer or Thorn, ect. I hope they do improve their finish QC. I do think they have improved their guitars playability (the Plek machine really helped

 

It was not my intension to scare anyone from buying a new Heritage (and sounds like they are getting better) or to single out Wolfe guitars. I still love the tone that only these guitars can give!

 

And as someone said, when I pick her up and play I don't think finish flaws. I think incredible playability and TONE

 

Thanks everyone and sorry about the long posts,

 

John

[Thundersteel]

And as someone said, when I pick her up and play I don't think finish flaws. I think incredible playability and TONE

 

Sounds like you made a well thought out, honest decision. If you do decide to send it back to Heritage for finish repairs, you can be sure they will do it right! (I had to send one back, and it came back perfect!)

 

Is that the one where the ad said, "Tone to da bone?" Congratulations!

[yoslate]

Well thought out and executed, Kuz.  It must have been trying to work through this.  The last thing I want to do when I buy something is to reconsider the purchase after taking delivery, especially something as intimate as a fine musical instrument.  My thinking was, and  I purposely didn't say this last night, if it's the player you seem to think it is, work through and around the cosmetics, and plug the f***er in!  Seems that's what you've decided.  

 

I should thank you for all this legwork, too.  I feel better about the prospects regarding the arrival of my guitar.  General karma up for the guys on the forum who weighed in; there was some really good thinking there!  

[brentrocks]

 My thinking was, and  I purposely didn't say this last night, if it's the player you seem to think it is, work through and around the cosmetics, and plug the f***er in!  Seems that's what you've decided.  

 

 

 

+100

[Kuz]

Thanks guys. I will be driving it to K-Zoo if they feel they can fix the flaws on top (about 4.5 hrs one way).

 

I'll be interested in hearing back from Ren & Vince.

 

I pride on keeping my guitars mint while still playing all of them. I will do the same with this one, (keep it in new/unplayed condition) but I am going to play the sh** out this guitar!

[slider313]

Kuz, on the red bleeding through the in some spots. I remember reading somewhere that goldtops have a red base coat. I see from your pics it's near the binding along the lower bout. It could be the finish didn't cure at the correct temperature or just didn't get the correct time to cure. In any case I think that's where the "red" comes in.

[squawken]

You can't argue with Mojo.  I have two older beat up guitars (one is a heritage) that I would NEVER sell.  I'm sure you can just feel it when you pick it up.  So now it has character.  My beat up 140 is grizzly sounding and I call it Oscar the Grouch, but it has mojo and character.  So enjoy!

[Dick Seacup]

I'm glad you reached a conclusion, John.  I didn't say it earlier, but that is what a goldtop should look like...right down to the ivoroid tuners! 

[grayta]

As long as you can live with the flaws they ARE just cosmetic... make sure you are gonna keep it for a good long while, though-those issues will really hurt the resale.

[Kuz]

Thanks again everyone.

 

The insights were wonderful.

 

This guitar was a gift to myself in finding a new job. I was not retained from my other company due to my higher salary. 17 years with only one company (think very very big Pharmaceutical company) and I was out of work for 12 months. I start back with another pharmaceutical company in a couple weeks.

 

Guitars are supposed to ease pain, not add to it. And yes a had a couple restless nights.

 

I played "Goldie Hawn" (yea corny I know - like G.H. my 150 has a couple rough spots but still looks incredible) tonight in my church band and the tone was still incredible.

 

I still think I made the right choice in keeping her. although I will be very interested in what Ren & Vince have to say about fixing the finish check and the red primer marks

[Dick Seacup]

You must come to the shindig in July, with Goldie in tow!