Good News and Bad News

[FredZepp]

Just means there are two guilty parties.

This dealer supposedly loves to advertise there "profession setups". Obviously, a set up wasn't done, or not done correctly.

I don't know who the dealer is... but if a professional set-up is advertised, then a black eye to them also.

 

after fixing my QC issues (minor in comparison to yours in all honesty), 575 played like a dream! That and the fact that the people on this forum are all such great guys is what healed the wounds from my lousy interaction with Heritage.

I'm sad that anyone has an issue with a Heritage guitar.... but this is a nice comment. I feel the same about the people here ... especially after seeing what else is going on in blogs on the internet...

 

I think Jay Wolfe's comments elsewhere on Heritage shows that the boys in Kalamazoo are set in their ways of doing things.. and that usually is the best. But sometimes things just go awry...

Best Wishes to all...

[pro-fusion]

I don't know who the dealer is... but if a professional set-up is advertised, then a black eye to them also.

 

If the fretboard is that uneven, then even the best set-up in the world wouldn't have made the guitar play properly. Fixing a poorly cut nut is relatively simple. Fixing a messed-up fretboard is not.

[ingeneri]

I think Jay Wolfe's comments elsewhere on Heritage shows that the boys in Kalamazoo are set in their ways of doing things.. and that usually is the best. But sometimes things just go awry...

Best Wishes to all...

 

 

It's one thing to defer to their judgment on making guitars. But they need to get someone to handle the business end better. Two HOC members complaining about poor service is too many.

 

For a comparison, I was having trouble fitting the sixth string into the bridge of my new Benedetto Bambino. I called the company, 100% sure the fault was my own, for some advice. Instead of speaking to an operator like I expected, Bob Benedetto himself called me back and walked me through stringing my guitar. Speaking to God on such a lowly matter, I felt both exhilerated and incredibly stupid. Now the Bambino is (reletively) mass produced guitar and among their cheapest models, and I bought it used off of Ebay. So, needless to say, Benedetto's response was way beyond anything I expected. In comparison, having a company follow up after a clear mistake has been made is not too much to ask.

 

These are precisely the stories one runs into all over the internet whenever we enthusiasts try to promote Heritage. They never die, there are guys bitching about problems they had in 1991. Like it or not, it's a dog eat dog globalized world out there. And Gibson is not Heritage's only competitor. Providing top service is not negotiable.

[iim7v7im7]

Phil did a marvelous job...

 

By replacing the 4 frets with taller wire it allowed for the plek machine to grind and contour frets located in the depressed area of the finger board to match the the other frets perfectly. The fingerboard depression is locallized the frets 6, 7, 8 and 9 and is more pronounced towards the high E string somewhat less pronounced toward the low E string. Some day when I get the instrument re-fretted I will address the issue the correct way (sand the board flat, re-fret, re-bind and plek). Phil has about 10 years of experience using the Plek and is a master in its use (like Joe Glaser in TN). I had him do my Sweet 16 as well which was a much less sick patient. He showed me where it was slightly out and offered the option of not having it plekked, but since I had driven 170 miles to the master's studio, I decided to have him do it as well. When I get chance; I will scan in the plek profile to show you the difference between the Sweet 16 and the H535 (it is dramatic).

 

Phil is the best luthier that I have had the pleasure to work with. He offered me options, he never pushed anything and was transparent in allowing me to watch the entire process and review the neck data. The nut he made is truly perfection. He polished the bone to a fantastic finish. He watched how hard I pick and bend in order to determine the depth of the slots (not from the finger board but from the top profile). I never expected this from the factory (nor should anyone) but a nut profiled and cut properly (e.g. profile height, groove spacing and groove profile). He charged what I thought was a reasonable rate: $80 for the nut; $160 for the Plek Level and $40 for the fret replacement. So $280 later, I have an instrument plays like a dream.

 

Bob

 

 

If the fretboard is that uneven, then even the best set-up in the world wouldn't have made the guitar play properly. Fixing a poorly cut nut is relatively simple. Fixing a messed-up fretboard is not.

[Kuz]

It's one thing to defer to their judgment on making guitars. But they need to get someone to handle the business end better. Two HOC members complaining about poor service is too many.

 

For a comparison, I was having trouble fitting the sixth string into the bridge of my new Benedetto Bambino. I called the company, 100% sure the fault was my own, for some advice. Instead of speaking to an operator like I expected, Bob Benedetto himself called me back and walked me through stringing my guitar. Speaking to God on such a lowly matter, I felt both exhilerated and incredibly stupid. Now the Bambino is (reletively) mass produced guitar and among their cheapest models, and I bought it used off of Ebay. So, needless to say, Benedetto's response was way beyond anything I expected. In comparison, having a company follow up after a clear mistake has been made is not too much to ask.

 

These are precisely the stories one runs into all over the internet whenever we enthusiasts try to promote Heritage. They never die, there are guys bitching about problems they had in 1991. Like it or not, it's a dog eat dog globalized world out there. And Gibson is not Heritage's only competitor. Providing top service is not negotiable.

 

 

-I would say 2 out of 2000 members is a pretty good ratio.

 

-I am not going to comment anymore, less I be labeled a homer and not believable.

 

-Every time I call Heritage between 7:15-9:30 AM EST M-TR, Bill Page will answer the phone. He then passes the phone to Ren or Vince and they diagnosis the issue and give steps on how action will be taken.

 

-I have offered my assistance to call for anyone having a problem or to check on any order. One person took me up on my offer.

 

-Again, an occasional lemon will come out of any company.

 

-Call at the above times and you will get a hold of Ren or Vince. If you don't, try the next day (but not on Fridays). If for some reason you can't call, or get through, my offer still stands.

 

I just had to post my feelings here one last time. Two bad experiences (or even a handful) should not define a company. I have found them to be the most helpful and customer friendly company I have ever done business with. From not accepting any money for different knobs, pickup rings, base-plate for an archtop bridge, ect, to free over the phone advice.

 

I had to ring in and just say for others that may be letting a handful of bad experience define Heritage guitars, that myself and many others have experience the exact opposite customer service.

 

I am not going to go back & forth on this topic anymore, PM if I can help in anyway.

 

Thanks,

 

John

[FredZepp]

If the fretboard is that uneven, then even the best set-up in the world wouldn't have made the guitar play properly. Fixing a poorly cut nut is relatively simple. Fixing a messed-up fretboard is not.

So... you are suggesting that a professional set-up was done and none of the issues were obvious...? It was ok to ship..?

[brentrocks]

I am really sorry that you are having trouble with your guitar. Ren told me if ANYBODY on the HOC was having trouble with their guitar, to let him know...or else have them contact me......

 

so...

 

PLEASE try to call EARLY monday morning...they will answer!

 

or if you like i will play middle man and i will relay your name and phone # and i promise you they will contact you.

 

BUT...

 

furthermore...if Wolfe was your dealer, the guitar should be returned to Wolfe and they chould send it back for repair or a new guitar....END OF STORY, that is the way it should be!!!!

 

Taking a BRAND new guitar to a 3rd party for repairs is not even fair, IMO....you need to make your dealer stand behind the product...AND I KNOW HERITAGE WIILL MAKE IT RIGHT!!!

[iim7v7im7]

Guys,

 

(1) My posting a follow-up here was not to have my dealer or Heritage remedy my particular instrument. I have paid to have a professional do that. The problem has been satisfactorily remedied and albeit imperfect (most guitars are), the instrument now plays like a dream.

 

(2) Additionally, my relationship with my dealer is also intact (leave that with me and him), it is with Heritage where it is now broken.

 

(3) To those that suggest that I call Heritage; thanks but no thanks. I have called the factory many times on my own and spoken with a number of the individuals mentioned over the years. They have always been generous with their time and amicable. In this case, Vince is aware of my situation personally. I do not need to chase him down beyond the three tries I have already made. I thought it was worth noting the lack of follow-up by Vince Margol. He e-mailed me twice on Dec 6th on his own accord and offered to follow-up. I appreciated this. I responded immediately on Dec 6, 11 and 19th and there was no follow-up. I wanted nothing from the company other than for him to fix a what I believe to be an aspect of broken manufacturing/quality system so others would not have to experience this and for the company to succeed. This lack of response in my view is inexcusable and goes beyond the original workmanship issues, but speaks to an attitude of utter disregard towards a repeat customer who had purchased two Heritage instruments from a major dealer. This was the final straw for me. It is disrespectful behavior and shameful in my view; plain and simple, no excuses. I am hoping this posting serves as a wake-up call for change, or they will surely fail.

 

(4) Lastly, I also wanted let others know about a great resource that I had used for those who need work done on their instruments.

 

Happy New Year to You All!

 

Bob

[big bob]

Guys,

 

(1) My posting a follow-up here was not to have my dealer or Heritage remedy my particular instrument. I have paid to have a professional do that. The problem has been satisfactorily remedied and albeit imperfect (most guitars are), the instrument now plays like a dream.

 

(2) Additionally, my relationship with my dealer is also intact (leave that with me and him), it is with Heritage where it is now broken.

 

(3) To those that suggest that I call Heritage; thanks but no thanks. I have called the factory many times on my own and spoken with a number of the individuals mentioned over the years. They have always been generous with their time and amicable. In this case, Vince is aware of my situation personally. I do not need to chase him down beyond the three tries I have already made. I thought it was worth noting the lack of follow-up by Vince Margol. He e-mailed me twice on Dec 6th on his own accord and offered to follow-up. I appreciated this. I responded immediately on Dec 6, 11 and 19th and there was no follow-up. I wanted nothing from the company other than for him to fix a what I believe to be an aspect of broken manufacturing/quality system so others would not have to experience this and for the company to succeed. This lack of response in my view is inexcusable and goes beyond the original workmanship issues, but speaks to an attitude of utter disregard towards a repeat customer who had purchased two Heritage instruments from a major dealer. This was the final straw for me. It is disrespectful behavior and shameful in my view; plain and simple, no excuses. I am hoping this posting serves as a wake-up call for change, or they will surely fail.

 

(4) Lastly, I also wanted let others know about a great resource that I had used for those who need work done on their instruments.

 

Happy New Year to You All!

 

Bob

 

Hey Bob, I hope you stick around the hoc. we appreciate your input.

glad you have a player now

Lance

[ronalr]

(4) Lastly, I also wanted let others know about a great resource that I had used for those who need work done on their instruments.

 

Happy New Year to You All!

 

Bob

 

Hey Bob sorry to read about all the problems...but I do appreciate your info on Phil......I live in Baltimore and am aware of him...but have never used his services (have not played live since 91 so my guitars are not abused the way they used to be when I played professionally )....it is good to know the kind of work he does and I am sure I will use him in the future.......glad you guitar plays great now!!! have a happy new year

[Kuz]

Bob, Dude, I am sorry about your situation.

 

I told you how to fix it.

 

I also told you that HERITAGE IS OFF ON VACATION!!!!

 

Then you go and have the work done by someone else.

 

Personally if all you are going to do is complain about a guitar that you wouldn't let the dealer or Heritage fix.... well we all have heard your story.

 

Can't you contribute something else to this forum. We get it. You were the 1 out of 50 or 100.

 

Let's move on and have cyber drink and talk about something else.

 

I only speak for myself.

[brentrocks]

(2) Additionally, my relationship with my dealer is also intact (leave that with me and him), it is with Heritage where it is now broken.

 

ok let me get this straight....

 

you custom ordered a new Heritage,

 

it had issues...you took it to a 3rd party, paid more $$$$ out of your pocket instead of malking the dealer pay for the repair and/or giving the factory a fair chance to remedy the problem....

 

....and now Heritage is the bad guy but the dealer comes out smelling like a rose?

 

thats not right!!!!

 

You didnt give Heritage a fair chance to take care of you.

[iim7v7im7]

Kuz,

 

I always felt I did contribute to this forum (still do:-)

 

While I appreciate your empathy, I think you may have missed my point. I am not complaining about the guitar defect or its repair or my dealer. This is water under the bridge and I am happy where the instrument ended up. I was also telling folks about a great luthier.

 

I am however, bringing up a new aspect to this story as an epologue. It is about the management of the company and their apparent utter lack of either care or professionalism in following up on a service issue that they were aware of on Dec 6th. Your Christmas Vacation story does not jibe considering the initial correspondence was on December 6th (a Sunday) and from their home e-mail account. Vince offered to call me, not the other way around. This was a new aspect to the story which I felt was relevant to tell. I am sorry if this seems like repetitive whining to you

 

Lastly, despite your assertion regarding defectrates (1/50 or 1/100), I doubt that you are is a position to know the true defect rate (quality and statistics are my profession), so let's leave that aside. But if these where the true rate, they are unacceptable.

 

Best,

 

Bob

 

 

 

Bob, Dude, I am sorry about your situation.

 

I told you how to fix it.

 

I also told you that HERITAGE IS OFF ON VACATION!!!!

 

Then you go and have the work done by someone else.

 

Personally if all you are going to do is complain about a guitar that you wouldn't let the dealer or Heritage fix.... well we all have heard your story.

 

Can't you contribute something else to this forum. We get it. You were the 1 out of 50 or 100.

 

Let's move on and have cyber drink and talk about something else.

 

I only speak for myself.

[iim7v7im7]

In my view its simple:

 

My dealer was upfront, transparent and willing to help remedy the situation. I believe them to be honest and honorable person based on my long-term experience and recent discussions. That's all one could ask for after the fact.

 

It was my decision to have the instrument repaired in the fashion that I did, and I am happy with the result. Without a Plek machine and an experienced luthier, the fret repair could not have been done ias well as it was. In hindsight, this was the right decision with quality as a goal.

 

The "bad guy" (your words, not mine) is the guy who was not honest nor straightforward. The person who did not say what they'll do and do what they say. I have been more than fair. I have attempted to reach them on multiple occasions and they do not respond. This is a leadership issue in my view. This is why I brought this to the attention of this forum.

 

Happy New Year,

 

Bob

 

 

ok let me get this straight....

 

you custom ordered a new Heritage,

 

it had issues...you took it to a 3rd party, paid more $$$$ out of your pocket instead of malking the dealer pay for the repair and/or giving the factory a fair chance to remedy the problem....

 

....and now Heritage is the bad guy but the dealer comes out smelling like a rose?

 

thats not right!!!!

 

You didnt give Heritage a fair chance to take care of you.

[Kuz]

Bob,

 

I have two final question for you (that you keep side stepping).

 

1. Same question Brent asked you... Why didn't you send the guitar back to Wolfe to correct/replace the guitar??

-If you did this, then you never would have had the need to contact Heritage. The dealer is the one who sold you the guitar and should have made it right. THEY are the ones who should have contacted Heritage and demanded a new guitar.

 

2. What did you expect Heritage to do when they called you back?

-maybe they talked to Wolfe and he said that you were going to fix it yourself. This violates the warranty and now Heritage won't/shouldn't touch the guitar.

 

If you sent it back to your dealer and followed protocol (or maybe Wolfe didn't offer to take it back or told you to fix it elsewhere), either way I don't see what you want Heritage to do. They never got a chance to see or fix the guitar. Your vagueness in why you fixed yourself vs sending back to Wolfe or Heritage doesn't help. For all Heritage knows, you are making this story up, again they never saw the guitar returned to them.

 

-Honestly I can't see why Heritage would call you back if you violated the warranty, but I am not speaking for myself and not Heritage guitars

 

AND finally as far as my sample size, I have/do own 5 time more Heritages than you and I have a local dealer where I have played another 30-40.

 

You chose to break the warranty, you chose to not follow protocol, and you chose to not give Heritage a chance to make it right. Sorry but I think Heritage is acting more than fair.

 

Out, end of rant. Good luck.

[FredZepp]

More than anything , I would not want the experience to have a negative effect on your feelings towards this guitar that you've waited for.

You deserve to enjoy it in good health for the new year...

Obviously, I think that if you end up pleased, that is a good result.

 

A Happy New Year. ( and post another pic when you have the chance...)

[iim7v7im7]

Yikes this thread is going where I had not intended it. I will try to address your accusations.

 

(1) My dealer offered to compensate to have the nut repaired locally. Why would I risk shipping it when some of the best craftsmen in the country are near me?

 

(2) If you must know, I would discuss with Mr. Margol concepts and principals of producing quality products with over 25 years of experience designing, manufacturing and quality systems that are applicable to his company as a corrective and preventative action (CAPA). They may be craftsmen, but they certainly could learn something from an outsider from another industry. That was really all I wanted. To have a dialogue to help make them better.

 

(3) There was more skill and technology locally. Heritage does many things well, but making nuts is not one of them. I was interested in results and not theoretical protocols.

 

(4) Your speculating about what Heritage knew and did not no without any knowledge of the situation. I made it clear what Vince knew and when. There was nothing vague about the situation nor what I wanted to discuss.

 

(5) I do not have the time, nor do I suspect this forum has any interest in hearing about sampling plans, AQLs, and true vs. sample estimates of defect rates. That being said I drew my conclusion from annecdotal information from someone who has seen orders of magnitude more of their instruments than you.

 

We clearly have different views of this situation. Mine is based on first hand experience of this situation and yours I would submit is based on a bit of speculation. I respectfully disagree with your view.

 

Bob

 

Bob,

 

I have two final question for you (that you keep side stepping).

 

1. Same question Brent asked you... Why didn't you send the guitar back to Wolfe to correct/replace the guitar??

-If you did this, then you never would have had the need to contact Heritage. The dealer is the one who sold you the guitar and should have made it right. THEY are the ones who should have contacted Heritage and demanded a new guitar.

 

2. What did you expect Heritage to do when they called you back?

-maybe they talked to Wolfe and he said that you were going to fix it yourself. This violates the warranty and now Heritage won't/shouldn't touch the guitar.

 

If you sent it back to your dealer and followed protocol (or maybe Wolfe didn't offer to take it back or told you to fix it elsewhere), either way I don't see what you want Heritage to do. They never got a chance to see or fix the guitar. Your vagueness in why you fixed yourself vs sending back to Wolfe or Heritage doesn't help. For all Heritage knows, you are making this story up, again they never saw the guitar returned to them.

 

-Honestly I can't see why Heritage would call you back if you violated the warranty, but I am not speaking for myself and not Heritage guitars

 

AND finally as far as my sample size, I have/do own 5 time more Heritages than you and I have a local dealer where I have played another 30-40.

 

You chose to break the warranty, you chose to not follow protocol, and you chose to not give Heritage a chance to make it right. Sorry but I think Heritage is acting more than fair.

 

Out, end of rant. Good luck.

[Poelbaum]

Just me two cents here. I think this has been beaten to death. At the end of the day, Heritage messed up, dealer may have messed up too but has made efforts to fix or compensate. Customer made a choice as to how to repair it, and that is certainly his choice to make, and Heritage as we all know, does not have a back office staff to manage administrative issues properly, and it sounds like they dropped the ball by promising to call and not doing so. Shit happens, if you run a business you know this, and while we strive to do right, we make mistakes, slip up, drop the ball - whatever. Heritage lost a customer. Will not be the first, or last. I think the posting was fair for the most part. I am sure if Heritage were given the chance they would acknowledge dropping the ball. I think everyone would hope they would do better. Lets move on, and happy new year to all.

[pro-fusion]

So... you are suggesting that a professional set-up was done and none of the issues were obvious...? It was ok to ship..?

 

No, just that a set-up alone wouldn't fix the problem. Had the dealer gotten the guitar back and diagnosed the problem, I'm guessing they would have shipped it back to Heritage for replacement or repair. Ideally, I guess this guitar never should have gone out to the customer in the first place.

 

I've had the unfortunate experience of having guitars with humps in the fretboard, although never on a brand-new guitar.

[FredZepp]

Ideally, I guess this guitar never should have gone out to the customer in the first place.

Agreed.... Hey,,,

Happy New Year.

 

BTW... we need more pics of this axe...

[PacerX]

Yikes this thread is going where I had not intended it. I will try to address your accusations.

 

(1) My dealer offered to compensate to have the nut repaired locally. Why would I risk shipping it when some of the best craftsmen in the country are near me?

 

Entirely reasonable.

 

 

 

(2) If you must know, I would discuss with Mr. Margol concepts and principals of producing quality products with over 25 years of experience designing, manufacturing and quality systems that are applicable to his company as a corrective and preventative action (CAPA). They may be craftsmen, but they certainly could learn something from an outsider from another industry. That was really all I wanted. To have a dialogue to help make them better.

 

Which is a conversation Heritage desparately needs to have, learn from, and then implement changes from.

[iim7v7im7]

Hi,

 

Just some photos:

 

Factory Nut:

 

Replacement Nut:

 

The nut is correctly, string slots sized for the strings, spaced properly and polished to a smooth finish. But note the asymmetry of the strings going to the tuning posts due to their placement. Just like the H555 in the other posting. I will post the plek scans later. I find them most interesting.

 

:-)

 

Bob

[ZAPMAN]

BOB: You have my sympathy! Little over a week ago I opened the case on my new H575 and was very surprised to find sharp edge frets on both sides of the finger board on all the frets, no nut problems. Hard to believe Heritage should still be going thru growing pains "BUTT"! Any guitar I am serious about I replace the nut with a graphite or bone one. Great quality of guitars but I also don't understand why the little things that cause big problems still happen......ZAPMAN

 

 

Hi,

 

I just received my custom H535 via UPS today. Overall, a beautiful instrument and I will provide photos this weekend.

 

Unfortunately, it is really not to playable at the moment. This will not come as a surprise to some of you. It's the nut.

 

 

It is the worst nut I have ever seen in all of years playing. The string slot spacing is way off on the A and D strings.

 

E to A = 9/32

A to D = 7/32

D to G = 11/32

G to B = 9/32

B to E = 9/32

 

Additionally, the slot depth and diameters are inadequate to smoothly guide the strings. The low E string is standing above the slot with only a small portion of its underside within the slot. I would expect better quality on a $300 Jay Turser or Fender Mexican guitar. When you make this type of mistake when making a guitar, you replace the nut in manufacture. If this fails in your manufacturing system, you also have an independent quality control function that requires the spacing and slot quality to be inspected. Lastly, I had hoped that my retailer would act as a final point of QC. They did not.

 

Mr. Duerloo, Lamb and Moats should be ashamed to put their names on this level of quality, particularly since the rest of the instrument has been executed at such a high level.

 

I will need to take the instrument, unplayed to a luthier and have it replaced for ~$100. I believe this probelem to be systemic in nature with Heritage Guitar. Making a good nut is NOT rocket science. I am posting this here because like them to see feed back from a person who owns 2 Heritage guitars(2000 Sweet 16 and 2009 H535). We don't grow on trees!

 

I am sorry to be lecturing, but I hope that you can imagine my disappointment on a multi-thousand dollar custom instrument. I believe that you may have seen postings like this before, but I hope they are less and less in the future. Nothing that is wrong with this instrument cannot be remedied by a good luthier, but on a new instrument out the the Parsons Street Factory this should not be necessary.

 

:-(

 

Bob

[PacerX]

Hi,

 

Just some photos:

 

Factory Nut:

 

Replacement Nut:

 

The nut is correctly, string slots sized for the strings, spaced properly and polished to a smooth finish. But note the asymmetry of the strings going to the tuning posts due to their placement. Just like the H555 in the other posting. I will post the plek scans later. I find them most interesting.

 

:-)

 

Bob

 

 

Hmmmm...

 

They do look off a hair. I wonder if they're supposed to be compensated for string diameter.

 

I'd love to see the Plek scans!

 

Oh, here's a good video too... I own a Godin nylon string acoustic/electric guitar synth (say that 5 times fast!!!!)... If'n you want, just skip to 9:30 to see the step that obviously got skipped on yours.

 

 

Because of your profession (and mine) note all the gauging and fixturing they are using to ensure that neck problems don't exist on their instruments, particularly at ~5:30.

 

Nut problems? Nope. See what happens at 6:35... Because the CNC process is so consistent, they can use a pre-cut nut and can worry a LOT less about getting the slots in the right place.

 

Multiple redundant checks needs to be added into the Heritage process. A rule of thumb in my industry was that any human being checking something will miss a problem about 10% of the time... hence the need for redundancy.

[barrymclark]

2. What did you expect Heritage to do when they called you back?

-maybe they talked to Wolfe and he said that you were going to fix it yourself. This violates the warranty and now Heritage won't/shouldn't touch the guitar.

Hey Kuz, I think the bigger issue is here that Vince committed to calling him and didn't. At that point, it wouldn't really matter what could have been accomplished. All I know is, if I paid that kinda cash for a guitar and it came jacked up, I would be calling everyone for either another guitar or my cash back. Might even call you, Kuz!

 

Just no excuse for such an oversite on such an expensive item. (Yes, I know Heritages are cheaper than X, Y and Z brands but that kinda money... is still that kinda money.)