Good News and Bad News

[blueox]

. . . I think the bigger issue is here that Vince committed to calling him and didn't. At that point, it wouldn't really matter what could have been accomplished. All I know is, if I paid that kinda cash for a guitar and it came jacked up, I would be calling everyone for either another guitar or my cash back. Might even call you, Kuz!

 

Just no excuse for such an oversite on such an expensive item. (Yes, I know Heritages are cheaper than X, Y and Z brands but that kinda money... is still that kinda money.)

 

This seems like a fair assessment.

[Kuz]

Hey Kuz, I think the bigger issue is here that Vince committed to calling him and didn't. At that point, it wouldn't really matter what could have been accomplished. All I know is, if I paid that kinda cash for a guitar and it came jacked up, I would be calling everyone for either another guitar or my cash back. Might even call you, Kuz!

 

Just no excuse for such an oversite on such an expensive item. (Yes, I know Heritages are cheaper than X, Y and Z brands but that kinda money... is still that kinda money.)

 

 

Again, this is beaten to death.

 

I think it is time to move on.... But...

 

I have spoke to a few others here at HOC about this and like it or not here is the bottom line.

 

1. All guitars are to be ship back to dealers for repairs or replacement

2. The dealer speaks with Heritage to see what they are going to do, either fix or replace

3. When guitar is fixed it is shipped to dealer which is then shipped to customer

 

THE MERE fact that the owner of a guitar factor was reaching out to a customer (either initiating or returning a call ) is just unheard of. Yes some of the smaller luthiers can be reached by phone or e-mail, but try calling Henry J at Gibson and see if you get a response.

 

If Vince didn't call back (again) I am sure he had a good reason.

-he is running a major business

-he is also an attorney

-It is/was right before the Holidays, right before their Christmas shut down.

-The customer broke company policy over the warranty and decided to have it fixed elsewhere

 

I really wanted to stop replying here but I am too passionate and caring for people I know well at the company. Heritage employees or owners can't defend themselves here on this site and that upsets me.This negative attention over a handful of guitars is probably costing Heritage orders. EVEN if the original intention by the OP was to help Heritage identify a QC issue, I STRONGLY believe it has backfired.

 

Funny how the dealer has been absent from these conversations, I would not (and now I think there is no shot in HELL) that Vince will log on.

 

There should have been a couple passing remarks about the guitar and then talked to the dealer or Heritage personally. People we are NOT talking about a regular QC issue, but a handful of guitars. Others, who aren't members are visiting & reading this site and are thinking this is a regular occurrence.

 

The issue with the OP has been solved by his own handling, lets move on. Now we have more pics and more bashing! With more promised to come?!!

 

I feel I need a break from HOC. I think I have said all I need to for a while. My friends of this forum you know where to reach me.

Heritage I wish the best of luck for you in 2010. You make INCREDIBLE guitars and all of mine have been perfect. I plan on buying another guitar, probably a 575, this year (That will take me up to 11 Heritages I have owned, all perfect)

 

John

[PacerX]

I feel I need a break from HOC.

 

Good idea.

[iim7v7im7]

John (Kuz),

 

I assume "OP" is me, Bob (iim7v7im7).

 

You are an active participant in this forum and while we have disagreed on this issue, I would not encourage you to take a break. People can have different perspectives so long as we talk in a respectful manner; we should all be able to participate.

 

While from your perspective the situation was simple and could have been handled in the manner that you proposed; based on the information I had on hand when I needed to make my decision; this was not the correct decision to remedy the manufacturing flaw (nut).

 

As it turns out, I made the correct decision. I would not have been able to remedy and unidentified fingerboard/fret flaw (longitudinal concavity) back at the factory unless I had gone to a Phil Jacoby or a Joe Glaser who possess the proper tools to diagnose and correct it. Money was not an issue at that point, having an instrument that played well was. In retrospect, I am happy that I chose the route I did. I am happy with my instrument so let's leave that for the moment.

 

The issue in my latter posting had really moved on from a product quality issue which I had resolved to an issue of customer fulfillment.

 

My dealer responded promptly and honestly and offered me remedies. To their credit, Heritage also quickly reached out quickly to offer remedies. That type of gesture by an executive is not unheard of by good companies, which I include Heritage amongst. I work for a 50,000+ person company and the Chairman read every letter about product quality sent to him by consumers and sent them onward to people like me to address them. I will point out that this gesture is meaningless unless followed through upon. It was just an apology followed by an empty promise (still is). My numbers are still available for Vince and I would be happy to talk with him if he calls.

 

Unfortunately, actions have consequences. The company may lose business if they produce products with quality issues or create service issues relating to customer fulfillment. This issue has not made me feel good at all. The guys back at the factory have been helpful to me over the years with my other Heritage. This is why I went back for another. This is partially the source of my disappointment.

 

You see we actually have the same goal. We both want Heritage to succeed. You would have (again, hypothetical you have never experienced what I have) handled it differently. I believe simple quality issues can be addressed if confronted directly and properly. I did not want them to do a thing other than fix their system. Should I not post the picture of the bad nut or the plek scans of a flawed neck? Some other participants have expressed interest in seeing them. Not to "bash" Heritage, but out of technical interest or as a means of identifying why the defect was there in the first place. I suspect they may need look into why this occurred (it’s not on my Sweet 16).

 

If Heritage produces a guitar with poorly crafted nuts, finger board contour issues or improperly positioned tuning machines (mine and another recent poster) do you think they will be around for the long haul? Yes, only if other companies do the same or worse. I would also submit that your argument of "low rate" is based on a perception of defect rate, which respectfully you are not in the best position to assess. Heritage has the skills and experience to correct all of these. The question in my mind is do they have the attitude?

 

The internet works two-ways: is a powerful communication tool for both manufacturers and consumers. This is a consumer user group. If we cannot discuss problems honestly and directly here along with the triumphs then why have this forum? The forum is overwhelmingly full of the GOOD things that they do, and I would hope that any rational passerby or participant could plainly see that. We’re a passionate bunch of fans.

 

My $.02

 

 

Again, this is beaten to death.

 

I think it is time to move on.... But...

 

I have spoke to a few others here at HOC about this and like it or not here is the bottom line.

 

1. All guitars are to be ship back to dealers for repairs or replacement

2. The dealer speaks with Heritage to see what they are going to do, either fix or replace

3. When guitar is fixed it is shipped to dealer which is then shipped to customer

 

THE MERE fact that the owner of a guitar factor was reaching out to a customer (either initiating or returning a call ) is just unheard of. Yes some of the smaller luthiers can be reached by phone or e-mail, but try calling Henry J at Gibson and see if you get a response.

 

If Vince didn't call back (again) I am sure he had a good reason.

-he is running a major business

-he is also an attorney

-It is/was right before the Holidays, right before their Christmas shut down.

-The customer broke company policy over the warranty and decided to have it fixed elsewhere

 

I really wanted to stop replying here but I am too passionate and caring for people I know well at the company. Heritage employees or owners can't defend themselves here on this site and that upsets me.This negative attention over a handful of guitars is probably costing Heritage orders. EVEN if the original intention by the OP was to help Heritage identify a QC issue, I STRONGLY believe it has backfired.

 

Funny how the dealer has been absent from these conversations, I would not (and now I think there is no shot in HELL) that Vince will log on.

 

There should have been a couple passing remarks about the guitar and then talked to the dealer or Heritage personally. People we are NOT talking about a regular QC issue, but a handful of guitars. Others, who aren't members are visiting & reading this site and are thinking this is a regular occurrence.

 

The issue with the OP has been solved by his own handling, lets move on. Now we have more pics and more bashing! With more promised to come?!!

 

I feel I need a break from HOC. I think I have said all I need to for a while. My friends of this forum you know where to reach me.

Heritage I wish the best of luck for you in 2010. You make INCREDIBLE guitars and all of mine have been perfect. I plan on buying another guitar, probably a 575, this year (That will take me up to 11 Heritages I have owned, all perfect)

 

John

[Dick Seacup]

I think the problem originated with the factory, the dealer fell down and the customer did what he felt he had to do to get it right. If I had spent $2500+ for a new guitar, built to my specifications and it showed up looking like that (or with the tuners mis-located), I would be angry. Much more so than either of the originators of these two threads appear to be. But, that's me. Nobody seems to be arguing that the nut was wrong (or the tuners mis-located). Why shoot the messenger? Frankly, some of the replies and posts in this and the "Riddle" thread are starting to take on a Les Paul Forum-esque character and that disturbs me.

 

One of the positive things to come out of this thread is that I'm thinking maybe I'll take a couple of my guitars to a local (trusted) luthier and pay for a good setup. I've always done my own, but, well sometimes I'm an "80 percenter."

[FredZepp]

I think the problem originated with the factory, the dealer fell down and the customer did what he felt he had to do to get it right

I can agree with this. But not to get..."angry", not if the dealer is working to find a solution... and apparently he did and did it well. Life is too short to internalize any unnecessary anger.

If I had received this guitar , I would have contacted the dealer and you might have seen some mention of it here... but you would have seen a lot of pics of the beauty of this axe. And my appreciation for it and Heritage and the dealer that resolved an issue. I would be telling you how sweet it is now and how I am bonding with it. But that's just me.

I deal with manufacturers and customers constantly and it is not a perfect world, so sometimes I do have to do something to resolve an issue. It is best for the customer to only have to negotiate the resolution with one party and that is my job.

I can't get behind the " I could teach them how to run a business" angle . I assume that they will make efforts to avoid this issue again.

When this plant was a Gibby plant, they would sometimes put out an instrument with a flaw... maybe even a bad nut, but those are appreciated now for what they did right.

I didn't want to add anymore to this thread, but felt compelled to do so. I am concerned with just making the quagmire even worse, and hope that in the end the OP enjoys a special guitar.

[yoslate]

.

[mars_hall]

.

 

fairly succinct

[tbonesullivan]

yikes. sounds like a mess, to be sure. It sounds like it was resolved to some extent. It would have been better had Heritage made more of an effort, but like any small company without a large office staff often the ball gets dropped as people are very busy. I'm not excusing the lack of communication from Heritage, but around this time of year everyone's heads are not really on what they are doing.

 

As for the 'issues', the nut is just unacceptable. How it got done that way, and then wasn't noticed at the dealer, is beyond me. The fretboard, well they are sanded down by hand, clamped, etc, which can cause problems like that on a hand-built instrument. Sometimes It just happens. I have a few Carvin guitars and basses, and unlike heritage, they have a computer controlled diamond abrasive fretboard sanding machine, with lasers and such. Expensive yes, but carvin mass-produces their guitars and they are carved out for the most part by machines. This of course means perfect fretboards every time. Heritage doesn't have one, so, you'll get issues. How the particular one in this case got messed up, who knows. I would hope that when sanding down the fretboard they would have noticed a depression rather easily, but it could have come at a later stage of construction.

 

Now, will I buy a NEW heritage ever? Probably not. THere are tons of USED ones out there, and I also have a problem with custom made instruments: i'll constantly be wondering if I should have chosen different options. With a guitar that is already in existence, that is taken out of my hands, so I just have to look for something I want, and stick with it.

[Kuz]

Good idea.

 

Classic act there buddy.

 

Gang, welcome to the new HOC.

[PacerX]

Classic act there buddy.

 

Gang, welcome to the new HOC.

 

 

My initial thought was that you were getting borderline hysterical about this, and you taking a little break might help you out a bit.

 

I see I was right, and that a break was a good idea.

[Dick Seacup]

So, then the nun says, "Pass me the banana!"

[pegleg32]

You have to forgive Kuz a rant once in awhile, he gets very passionate.

[Kuz]

My initial thought was that you were getting borderline hysterical about this, and you taking a little break might help you out a bit.

 

I see I was right, and that a break was a good idea.

 

Want don't you just PM me your personal attacks were there I can choose to reply or ignore you.

 

Doing this out and in public is making you look childish and like an ass.

 

The best thing for me to do is ignore you and let others form their opinions of what kind of person you are.

 

I consider this over between you and me.

 

I might be passionate but never went so low as to name calling and personal attacks to anyone here.

 

What in the hell did I ever do to you anyhow?

[barrymclark]

Wow. Did this tire (thread) break its bead (get out of hand). Not wanting to be misread.

[PacerX]

Want don't you just PM me your personal attacks were there I can choose to reply or ignore you.

 

Doing this out and in public is making you look childish and like an ass.

 

I haven't attacked you in the least. You said you were taking a break, and sensing your impending meltdown, I thought that was a good idea.

 

Then you came back... and now you are melting down.

 

The break was a much better idea. Take your own advice. Step out of this one for a little bit, go play your guitars and enjoy them. Come back in a few days with a fresh perspective.

 

 

 

The best thing for me to do is ignore you and let others form their opinions of what kind of person you are.

 

I'm pretty sure you would struggle with that. You have to reply. For some reason I can't quite fathom, you are emotionally invested in this to a degree that borders on obsessive and attack anyone and everyone who disagrees with you.

 

Here's a fact for ya:

 

Heritage built this poor guy a ~$2500 guitar that wouldn't have made it past QC in a Samick plant.

 

***Read the above line carefully. It stings, but it is absolutely true. Any of the major manufacturers would have caught that at final inspection (or much earlier due to the neck issue) and never let that guitar out the door. Most likely, it wouldn't even be sold as a second. It would either be sent to offline repair (if they could fix it) or torn down for a neck replacement and rebuild.***

 

 

 

A couple of folks here are trying to help constructively by pointing out how Heritage can fix their process to stop it from ever happening again. You're trying to blame him for not following some hypothetical procedure you dreamt up about how he should have gone about fixing HIS guitar.

 

He owns it. If he wanted to, he's got every right to set the thing on fire. He can do anything he wants to with it.

 

 

 

However, the facts above have got you so wrapped around the axles that you're baiting anyone and everyone who disagrees with your evaluation of the situation (and particularly me) into a flame war about it.

 

 

 

I might be passionate...

 

Well, I guess that's one word for it.

 

 

 

 

but never went so low as to name calling and personal attacks to anyone here.

 

Really?

 

Classic act there buddy.

 

Hmmmm...

 

 

 

 

 

What in the hell did I ever do to you anyhow?

 

Beyond a complete meltdown directed at me and a ham-fisted attempt at a flame war, nothing.

[212Mavguy]

FWIW, this thread reminds me of a tiny metal splinter that got stuck in the palm of my hand, the site became irritated, infected, inflamed, and then started to ooze pus. When i removed the splinter, things healed up pretty quickly. I think that it would be a good thing for the moderator of this section to remove this entire thread, it is not typical of the kind of positive spirit that I see in the overwhelming majority of threads here, and it has atracted too much attention when considering the number of views, including my FNG eyes... Reminds me of Harmony Central in not a good way. Peace... please.

 

Gary

[LH575]

I had issues with a custom H575 that I had built a while back. Vince and I spoke a couple times about it and he made it right. He built me another 575 and even allowed me to change some specs. He was very gracious and could not have treated me better. The second guitar was PERFECT!

 

Here is one thumbs up for Vince.

[hiro]

here are the gems from this discussion:

 

Heritage, despite being a star, can also release a dog once in a while (who let the dogs out?). Despite what we can do at our best, sometimes you see us at our worst. To be human . . .

 

OP, despite being dissed is willing to help the company that lead to his grief, improve. Class Act

 

Kuz has alot of passion for Heritage. And humbling.

 

Brent and other community members make the HOC THE place to come to for solutions for Heritages. Uber forum

 

( very hard to find in the forums of today, easier before commercialization of the internet and newsgroups were king)

 

Wolfe Guitars and Heritage came through in the end. FTW

 

Do not NERF warranty on a new guitar by getting someone else (not the luthier / builder) to fix your new guitar. Patience really is a virtue.

 

If anything, this has taught me that one can rely on the HOC and its Heritage connexions. Community.

 

 

related threads:

http://www.heritageownersclub.com/forums/i...?showtopic=7176

 

http://www.heritageownersclub.com/forums/i...?showtopic=7184

[jaywolfe]

Brent says: "furthermore...if Wolfe was your dealer, the guitar should be returned to Wolfe and they chould send it back for repair or a new guitar....END OF STORY, that is the way it should be!!!!

 

Taking a BRAND new guitar to a 3rd party for repairs is not even fair, IMO....you need to make your dealer stand behind the product...AND I KNOW HERITAGE WIILL MAKE IT RIGHT!!!..."

******************************************************

Brent,

I appreciate your input however this is not the only way to handle it, and often not the best. In a situation such as this we like to offer a customer several choices for the speediest remedy. These choices will depend on the customer's location & will include:

* Return to dealer (If you are close- this is usually the choice)

* Return to Heritage. They made it & they usually want to "see" the problem area(s) before correction.

* Have your local trusted Luthier handle it with some money to cover it.

* Take to Luthier of Dealer's choosing. (Just did a nut replacement last week for a guy living 120 miles from us. Sent him to a guy nearby who did it while he went for lunch & I paid for it. Quick & convenient)

 

In most cases I can request Heritage pay the return shipping cost to Kalamazoo. If Bob had returned it to me, it would've cost twice as much and taken weeks 10+ days longer. We discussed it, Bob weighed "his" choices and decided to have his guy correct the issues. He's pleased, Heritage is fine & I somehow get CLOBBERED! Geez guys, Thanks for nothing. If anyone wants more details about this- please e-mail me at jay@wolfeguitars.com. I'll be glad to explain further in private, however I can't discuss the details of Bob's issues. He & I are fine & he loves his new Heritage.

Further- Brent is absolutely correct in his understanding of Heritage's "written" policy. I am a person that feels that a customer wronged in this fashion warrants going above & beyond, and put the legalese aside & simply do the right thing.

Thankfully Heritage has backed me with this unwritten policy many times. Another reason why Wolfe Guitars will increase our commitment to Heritage in 2010.

 

Jay Wolfe

[yoslate]

Jay:

 

Thanks for taking the time to post a clarification, and for waiting until the "heat of battle" had subsided. This sort of thing must put you in a very awkward position, and your patience in letting it work itself out here, before underscoring your position, gives you a credibility money can't buy. Thanks also for adding your point of view to the HOC, and reiterating your support for Parsons Street and The Boys! Always good when you weigh in.

 

Rob

[iim7v7im7]

"He & I are fine & he loves his new Heritage."

 

As Jay said, we are fine and I would gladly by another instrument from him. I also do love my new H535.

 

:-)

 

Bob

[Thundersteel]

Jay,

 

Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to submit your input.

 

I guess we are all in awe on how something like this could have happened.

 

But there is more than one side to every story. As long as the buyer is happy in the end, then that is all that counts.

[Poelbaum]

Jay thanks for posting. I for one applaud your professionalism in not posting details about a private transaction between you and one of your customers. It is as it should be and I am sure takes some restraint when your reputation in being "clobbered".

[barrymclark]

There is one thing my divorce several years ago taught me: you can kiss your wife "good night" every day for 30 days in January and she never really gives it a thought but will carry the 31st day where you didn't for the rest of her life and yours.