Couple of set-up related questions for the guru's

[67mike]

Hi Guys:

 

 

As you know, I recently bought a H150CM OSB with P90's............LOVE, LOVE, LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Just wondering about a few questions: (I am a NEWBIE to set-ups)

 

1) Does anyone here know for certain if Heritage PLEKK's it's guitars???? I have found articles on the net that say....yes, each guitar is PLEKKed after 2004???? I asked the company, but they did not respond to that question....which makes me a bit leary on it...and the fact that a few frets on my guitar have what appear to be file marks made by a person, not cnc machine?

 

2) My guitar has the stopbar cranked down tight to the body.....so that the strings actually touch the bridge on the stopbar side>>>>>>>have read some info on set-ups and it appears that folks are split into 2 camps on this....some seem to like it cranked down tight to the body to increase sustain, but some luthiers say, no raise it up so that the strings do not touch the body of the bridge????? Does anyone here know if the Heritage factory sets up the guitars with the stopbar cranked down....or did someone at the music shop try to set this up????

 

3) I notice that my nut is somewhat low in the middle, my G is a bit dead. I thought the nut should have a radius similar to the bridge?

[tulk1]

Plek - Not any longer. They did. They have a machine. They don't use it. Sometimes they will farm that out. But the guitars are no longer coming plek'd from the factory.

 

Stopbar - Sometimes that is determined by the actual angle of the neck as it sits in the pocket. Being hand fitted, there are variances. You can always try readjusting it. Can't hurt it. If you don't like it, put it back.

 

Nuts - I've not had any problems with the factory nuts on my Heritages. But, we do know they can be problematic. Ren tries to ensure the nuts are cut shallow, rather than deep. That allows for better customization at the user's discretion. However, that is probably the weakest link on the guitars at the moment. And yes, the nut should follow the neck radius. Much like the bridge.

[H]

2) My guitar has the stopbar cranked down tight to the body.....so that the strings actually touch the bridge on the stopbar side>>>>>>>have read some info on set-ups and it appears that folks are split into 2 camps on this....some seem to like it cranked down tight to the body to increase sustain, but some luthiers say, no raise it up so that the strings do not touch the body of the bridge????? Does anyone here know if the Heritage factory sets up the guitars with the stopbar cranked down....or did someone at the music shop try to set this up????

 

Hi,

 

this is called the break angle and if it's set too steep, as I believe yours is, the string will touch the bridge before the it sits on the saddle. This will encourage early string breakage in my experience. Google around for 'string break angle' and see the various discussions for various guitar brands for a more complete study of this.

 

regards,

 

H

[67mike]

Plek - Not any longer. They did. They have a machine. They don't use it. Sometimes they will farm that out. But the guitars are no longer coming plek'd from the factory.

 

Stopbar - Sometimes that is determined by the actual angle of the neck as it sits in the pocket. Being hand fitted, there are variances. You can always try readjusting it. Can't hurt it. If you don't like it, put it back.

 

Nuts - I've not had any problems with the factory nuts on my Heritages. But, we do know they can be problematic. Ren tries to ensure the nuts are cut shallow, rather than deep. That allows for better customization at the user's discretion. However, that is probably the weakest link on the guitars at the moment. And yes, the nut should follow the neck radius. Much like the bridge.

 

 

Too bad they don't plekk them anymore. Wonder why they stopped, if they have the machine?????

 

Eventually I might have a new nut made/installed......there is NO ONE in my area who I would let touch my guitar....except my Father who is taking Luthier courses and is an engineer and fanatic. A few of my string slots are deep and the centre of the nut seems low...but, I am not a pro at set-up by any means.

 

PS: Don't get me wrong........the guitar is FANTASTIC and I can play it as is and no one would know the difference about these little issues.

[yoslate]

this is called the break angle and if it's set too steep, as I believe yours is, the string will touch the bridge before the it sits on the saddle. This will encourage early string breakage in my experience. Google around for 'string break angle' and see the various discussions for various guitar brands for a more complete study of this.

 

Some are also of the opinion that the setup with the strings "breaking" over the bridge, rather than the saddles, will place undue lateral stress on the bridge studs.

 

At PSPII the Plek machine appeared to be serving as a coat rack.

 

Sounds like all your 150 needs is just a little seasoning to taste. I recall the pics. I covet one of those; enjoy!!!

[barrymclark]

I second Yoslate's response. Sounds like maybe a little personal setup liking is in order.

 

I have found this to be true in any guitar I have ever gotten. Even the 140.

 

For instance, I like my necks to be flat as a board with regards to the truss rod adjustment. A lot of people HATE that. Some don't. There are plenty of people who like it somewhere in between what I like and it to be a lap steel. haha.

 

Break angle can affect the sustain as well but as mentioned of the strings arent fed through the saddles correctly, then string breaking can occur.

 

THe above also applies to nuts. If the string isn't fed properly through the nut, then you will get pinching (usually just creaks and makes tuning a bit annoying but can also break strings... especially your high E.)

 

I love hearing that people get guitars they connect with. I really get great joy out of it. Makes you feel good to see people excited about something.

 

Your new 150 and my mystery who-knows-if-and-when-I-will-be-able-to-afford-it have a something a little bit in common! Won't say what.

[Kuz]

I will weight in here. I talked at length with Terry McInturff who is one of the most accomplished luthiers of all time. He said that the break angle only will effect the bridge and the tension over time could cave in the bridge. He said if it is a Nashville bridge with the set metal studs in the guitar (like Heritage uses) then they are virtually indestructible and a slight angle of the strings touching the bridge is fine.

 

He also said there is no difference in tone or sustain of a bridge with strings touching or not touching the back of the bridge.

 

It is purely a structural issue with the AB1 bridge, not the Nashville (Heritage style) bridge.

 

Hope this helps!

[yoslate]

Thanks for the detail on the clarification, John. Terry's guitars are nothing short of immaculate!

[67mike]

I will weight in here. I talked at length with Terry McInturff who is one of the most accomplished luthiers of all time. He said that the break angle only will effect the bridge and the tension over time could cave in the bridge. He said if it is a Nashville bridge with the set metal studs in the guitar (like Heritage uses) then they are virtually indestructible and a slight angle of the strings touching the bridge is fine.

 

He also said there is no difference in tone or sustain of a bridge with strings touching or not touching the back of the bridge.

 

It is purely a structural issue with the AB1 bridge, not the Nashville (Heritage style) bridge.

 

Hope this helps!

 

 

So really, it is not a big issue structure wise. But, as for string breakage, tuning etc... I would think it is better to have it so the strings do not ride on the body of the bridge?

[Spectrum13]

So really, it is not a big issue structure wise. But, as for string breakage, tuning etc... I would think it is better to have it so the strings do not ride on the body of the bridge?

 

 

 

May I suggest...

going with a Faber style washer under the stud /system. You could raise the stop enough to clear the back of the bridge and still have solid contact with the top. If you use their studs, it locks and makes string changes easier. Or you could top wrap and keep it cranked down. There is also the issue of "rocking torque" With the studs raised up the pull from the strings "over many years" can cause cracks in the top. Longer studs going deeper into the body with longer anchors help prevent this.

[GuitArtMan]

I'm going to pipe in here with my experience.

In the '70s when I grew up the thinking was crank the tail piece down as close to the body as possible as this will increase sustain. So this is what I did.

Flash forward to the late '80s when I get my '59 Flame Top RI. It's one of the early RIs which had a steeper neck set than is normal. This necessitates having the bridge posts be taller than normal. Like before I cranked the tail piece all the way into the body. Well I collapsed two ABR-1 bridges before I decided it might be a good idea to try top wrapping. This allows me to crank the tail piece studs as far down into the body as they will go, but by top wrapping the break angle is not so great as the crush the poor defenseless ABR-1.

 

Now concerning break angle. To say this doesn't affect tone/feel to me is ignorant. Try raising/lowering your tail piece and tell me you don't notice a change in the feel of the guitar. For me, it's not so much the touch (pressure to fret a note) as the resistance to bends/vibrato. Try it and see. Also, with a steep break angle at the bridge there is more downwards pressure at the bridge. This in turn means more energy, more force is being pushed down on the bridge, the bridge posts and into the face of the guitar. I remember years ago having a conversation with the then manager of a local guitar shop I frequented. We both agreed that the acoustic guitars we liked the most tended to have fairly tall bridge saddles. The extra downward pressure created by the break angle over the bridge saddle just seem to drive the top more. Of course it couldn't bee too high, or you'd run into some structural problems.

[67mike]

I'm going to pipe in here with my experience.

In the '70s when I grew up the thinking was crank the tail piece down as close to the body as possible as this will increase sustain. So this is what I did.

Flash forward to the late '80s when I get my '59 Flame Top RI. It's one of the early RIs which had a steeper neck set than is normal. This necessitates having the bridge posts be taller than normal. Like before I cranked the tail piece all the way into the body. Well I collapsed two ABR-1 bridges before I decided it might be a good idea to try top wrapping. This allows me to crank the tail piece studs as far down into the body as they will go, but by top wrapping the break angle is not so great as the crush the poor defenseless ABR-1.

 

Now concerning break angle. To say this doesn't affect tone/feel to me is ignorant. Try raising/lowering your tail piece and tell me you don't notice a change in the feel of the guitar. For me, it's not so much the touch (pressure to fret a note) as the resistance to bends/vibrato. Try it and see. Also, with a steep break angle at the bridge there is more downwards pressure at the bridge. This in turn means more energy, more force is being pushed down on the bridge, the bridge posts and into the face of the guitar. I remember years ago having a conversation with the then manager of a local guitar shop I frequented. We both agreed that the acoustic guitars we liked the most tended to have fairly tall bridge saddles. The extra downward pressure created by the break angle over the bridge saddle just seem to drive the top more. Of course it couldn't bee too high, or you'd run into some structural problems.

 

 

OK ...I will try top wrapping next string change....that might be just the ticket!

[yoslate]

To say this doesn't affect tone/feel to me is ignorant. Try raising/lowering your tail piece and tell me you don't notice a change in the feel of the guitar. For me, it's not so much the touch (pressure to fret a note) as the resistance to bends/vibrato. Try it and see.

 

 

I've worked with this concept on all my guitars. I can only second this, as it relates to feel! Tweaking the tailpiece height solely as it relates to the feel of a guitar is now a regular part of my setup.

[Kuz]

To clarify my point... Terry was saying that if the strings rubbed against the edge of the BRIDGE or if they didn't had minimal to no effect on sustain or tone.

 

All of my 150s have the strings, slightly, touching the back of the bridge (steep break angle) and my tail piece is cranked down low. I believe this offers the best tone and playability (having the stoptail cranked down). My stoptails are low, but not flush to the top of the guitar.

 

Terry said since the break angle is not severe and since Heritage uses Nashville bridges with the metal studs, collapsing a Nashville bridge is almost impossible.

 

I have never had a string break with this set up.

 

I agree that with a ABR-1 bridge that bridge collapse with a sharp string to bridge angle is an issue and Terry did state this as well. (But again we don't have to worry about this as much with the Nashville bridge)

 

Hope that clears a few things up.