13's on a 25.5 Scale Archtop...Yes/No?

[Gitfiddler]

I've have some Thomastik-Infeld 13-53 Jazz Swing flat wounds that I'd like to try out on my Sweet 16. My only reservation is this.

 

Will the increased tension of these heavier gauge strings be too much for this 25.5 scale archtop? I recall Ren recommending nothing greater than 12's. Why?

 

Will the 13's cause more downward pressure on the top?

 

Will the transition to a higher gauge necessitate a set up?

 

Finally, I don't want to screw up or potentially damage this wonderful guitar.

 

I'm pretty sure there will be a change in tone from the previous strings that I've used on this fine guitar (D'Addario Chrome flats, and Half Round 12's).

 

Acoustically the guitar rings better with the Half Rounds of course, but has more of a the traditional jazz thump with the flats. Since I play mostly plugged in, I've decided on flats going forward.

 

Recently I've read about players using 12 or 13 Roundwounds on their archtops. That is another option, but I'll wait to hear from other players about the 13's first.

 

 

Tim

 

[H]

I can only answer one of your questions. ANY change in string size will require a set-up but this may be limited to intonation (i.e. bridge saddle adjustment).

[tulk1]

13's? Holy molly. The must look like this!

 

[111518]

I think this is one of those issues where you just have to make a choice. Bigger strings have advantages, but put greater stresses on an instrument. Experienced players who buy Martins know that the guitar will eventually need a neck reset ... how long is partly determined by the gauge of string the player uses, but the tone of the instrument is also partly determined by string gauge. What makes a Martin sound so alive is that it is not overbuilt. Makes sense that a manufacturer is going to recommend lighter strings, because then instruments will last longer and players won't complain about bowed necks or collapsing bridges or tops ... but maybe long life comes at the expense of compromised tone.

 

I'd try the 13's. If they sound great and play great, use them --and keep an eye on the neck and top. If you don't hear or feel a lot of difference than with 12's, go back, and click the compromise between resonance and resistance back towards resistance. The guys at the 'zoo are obviously experienced guitar makers ... but it's your guitar. My 2 cents.

[yoslate]

13's? Holy molly. The must look like this!

 

 

 

That a wound "G," Kenny?

[Patrick]

I think this is one of those issues where you just have to make a choice. Bigger strings have advantages, but put greater stresses on an instrument. Experienced players who buy Martins know that the guitar will eventually need a neck reset ... how long is partly determined by the gauge of string the player uses, but the tone of the instrument is also partly determined by string gauge. What makes a Martin sound so alive is that it is not overbuilt. Makes sense that a manufacturer is going to recommend lighter strings, because then instruments will last longer and players won't complain about bowed necks or collapsing bridges or tops ... but maybe long life comes at the expense of compromised tone.

 

I'd try the 13's. If they sound great and play great, use them --and keep an eye on the neck and top. If you don't hear or feel a lot of difference than with 12's, go back, and click the compromise between resonance and resistance back towards resistance. The guys at the 'zoo are obviously experienced guitar makers ... but it's your guitar. My 2 cents.

 

you may want to try this set up . . . .013, .017, .022 wound, .030, .040, .050. Not as much stress on the top and you still have the full fat sound in the treble, where you want it. Regarding Ren's comments on "don't go over .012 guage strings;; unless the top is tap tuned I wouldn't worry about it. If the top and the neck are made the way they're supposed to be, and there is no tap tuning (which will further thin out the spruce . . . great for tone . . . not so good for stability under excess weight from the bridge base) the guitar will tolorate .013 guage with no trouble. I have found that ol' Ren always like to err on the side of caution.

[RJLII]

I have flatwound .012's on my H-550. No big deal, and plenty heavy. Lot's o' thump.

[barrymclark]

I can only answer one of your questions. ANY change in string size will require a set-up but this may be limited to intonation (i.e. bridge saddle adjustment).

Not always true. Some guitars go through string type changes just fine. Others you can't even put the same strings on one are a time without complete adjustment. I even had a bigsby on an archtop that went from 12's to 10's then 11's without an audibly noticable change in intonation.

[Millennium Maestro]

I have flatwound 12 gauge chromes on a millie 155... sweet!!

[Kuz]

Well, I have the George Benson Thomastik Round wound 12-53s on my 575 Custom and they are PERFECT.

http://www.juststrings.com/toi-gr112.html

 

I had heavier 12s on at first (12-54s) and I could swear I was hearing the bracing bend.

 

Thomastik are known for equal tension from string to sting. Flatwounds have a little more tension than round wound.

 

Crazy thing is the more I read about jazz cats, the lower the strings they use (George Benson 12s, Vince Lewis 11s, Jeff Golub 11s on Archtops & 9s on his Strat, Pat Metheny 11s on his ES175, Jim Hall 11s)

 

Why are we amateur the few that are going higher gauge?

[Gitfiddler]

Thanks for the thoughts, ideas, examples and especially the photo from the hardware store.

 

John Scofield uses 13's on his old Ibanez AS200 semi-hollow, and his signature model JSM100 semi comes from the factory with 13's in his honor. Yikes!!

He must have fingers stronger than Victor Wooten the way he plays his jazz runs.

 

As for the Sweet 16, I do not want to take a chance on sinking the top or stressing the neck. She came to me used and I have no idea if it is tap tuned. (Does Heritage write that on the label of tap tuned archtops?) Also, the neck re-set comment gave me the Willies!

 

Anyway, I think I'll save the TI 13's for the H550 (Babs) . As a laminate top with minimal arch, I feel safer experimenting on that big blonde rather than on Sweetie.

[Patrick]

Thanks for the thoughts, ideas, examples and especially the photo from the hardware store.

 

John Scofield uses 13's on his old Ibanez AS200 semi-hollow, and his signature model JSM100 semi comes from the factory with 13's in his honor. Yikes!!

He must have fingers stronger than Victor Wooten the way he plays his jazz runs.

 

As for the Sweet 16, I do not want to take a chance on sinking the top or stressing the neck. She came to me used and I have no idea if it is tap tuned. (Does Heritage write that on the label of tap tuned archtops?) Also, the neck re-set comment gave me the Willies!

 

Anyway, I think I'll save the TI 13's for the H550 (Babs) . As a laminate top with minimal arch, I feel safer experimenting on that big blonde rather than on Sweetie.

 

Good choices Gitfiddler. Not knowing if the top has been tap tuned, I would stay away from the 13's also . . . except in the custom set I described earlier in this thread. Anyway, I don't see why you would need 13's on a sweet 16 in the first place. They will definitely hinder your runs and you chording . . . unless you've got super chops and hands like Tal Farlow. SRV used 13 round wounds on all of his strats. He needed to down tune them 1/2 step lower so he get the level of string bend he wanted . . . . and he had hands that looked like a first baseman's mit!! Get yourself an old guitar that you don't care about . . . put the 13s on that guitar . . . . do all your practicing, scales, modes etc. on the 13s. Then when you go to the 12s . . . . you'll FLY!!!

[Guest mgoetting]

I got my Eagle Classic with 13s on it. My others have 10s or 11s.

 

After 30 minutes on the Eagle, I'm ready for anything.

 

Next string change I'm dropping to 12s.

[je00143]

I’ve been using DAddario 13-56 for several years on my 575. No problems with neck, bridge, top or anything else. Used to use Benson 14s but got the same sound I was looking for with the 13s. And the Daddarios are often a lot easier to find than Tomastiks. I tried 12s but then the sound got a bit thin for my liking. And I don't do that many bends, anyway…….so 13s it is.

[jrfreed]

I strung my Eastman archtop with 13's and wont go back...that extra mass really gets the solid top working. They added more pop and depth to the overall sound that I would have a hard time giving back. The ideal sound for me is 75% amplified sound with 25% accoustic sound for jazz.

 

To answer your direct questions...yes on a new setup...yes on more downward pressure on the top, but you get rewarded for that with a bigger/fuller sound.

 

I cant believe Heritage would make an archtop...specificially targeted at jazz players...unable to handle the stress of 13 guage strings.

 

Just my 0.02

[Spectrum13]

I also have the TI 13-56 flats on my Eastman but it needed the thump cause it's really bright.

 

The more archtops a company makes and the longer they make them = the better they can predict structural issues.

 

Since Ren started in 1960 he has seen 50 years of repairs like sunken tops and neck resets. I believe he would ask what strings were used and his suggestions are based on avoiding expensive repairs.

[Windstring]

Other folks have alluded to this already, but I cannot see any reason to avoid the 13s on your guitar. These Heritage archtops can take it, no problem. The only thing you might have to do is tighten the truss rod to keep the action flat. I use 13s on a Sweet 16 because I like to have a loud acoustic sound, plus I actually like the "workout" my fingers get....other guitars strung with lighter strings are SO easy to play afterward! Please note that if you get the truss rod right, and the action very low, the guitar remains very playable despite the heavier strings. But, here's my disclaimer: if you are not familiar/proficient with truss rod adjustments, leave the set up to a professional. Just adding my 3 cents worth...

Cheers.

[VintagePerson]

Not much to add to the already good advice here. I also have a Sweet 16. I have 12's on it right now. Tried the 13's but there really was not that much difference in tone. Not enough for me anyway. I'm back with the 12's. I originally strung it with Gibson flatwounds, and really liked them, but they don't make them anymore. I went to the D'Addario Chromes flatwound 12's but I really don't like them at all. They don't really sound as good as the Gibson's did, and they break. I use D'Addario's 10's and 11's on my other guitars, and love them, but the flatwounds get the big thumbs down from me.