Volume Knob & Guitar Tone

[peacemaker]

Prior to obtaining my gorgeous 575, the only electric guitars I had ever played were exclusively single coil Fender guitars. Other than jazz, I was never attracted to the humbucker sound. On a strat, you can't turn the volume knob down or the soul of your tone goes all frigid. I thought that wasn't the case w/ humbuckers, but I'm noticing that I lose some of the "balls" of my voice on the 575 when I play at less than full volume on the guitar's volume knob. It may simply be that I'm pushing the tubes in my Twin just that tiny bit more...idunno. What say ye?

[FredZepp]

See if this covers some of your questions... many here will have opinions on it...

 

 

Modern Wiring (above)

Pro - Because the tone controls receive their signal from the input of the volume pot, they are effectively connected directly to the pickup. Consequently, the volume pots' positions have no effect on the operation of the tone controls, which operate completely independently of the volume controls.

Con - The tone changes as you roll down the volume pot - there is some treble roll-off in addition to the volume roll-off. This doesn't bother some people at all, while it drives others crazy. In any case it can be compensated for by installing a volume kit, which is a resistor and capacitor wired in parallel across the volume pot's input and output lugs. These are pretty effective, but there is some modest tonal compromise associated with them, they're not a perfect fix. Still, the majority of people who try them find them to be an improvement. You can choose these as an option below and we'll wire them into the circuit for you.

 

Vintage Wiring (above)

Pro - When you roll off the volume control, you don't have a corresponding treble roll-off, the tone stays consistent.

Con - The tone and volume controls are interactive, because the tone controls receive their signal from the output of the volume pots (rather than the inputs). Because the position of the volume pot affects the tone control, the tone control's effect is inconsistent. As an example, if you like the tone control set at 5 with the volume all the way up, then this may change as soon as you roll the volume pot down some.

 

 

50's wiring... vs modern wiring

[mars_hall]

One of the good things about a SD Phat Cat pickup is, it is less susceptible to the treble roll-off as you turn the volume down. I was pleasantly surprised to discover this by accident.

[Spectrum13]

With my strat the volume control also needs to be on 10 to sound best but I consider that to be the taper of the pots as well as the amp's sensitivity and volume level. More the Fender single coil thing cause I don't experience this with humbuckers or P90. Some amps sound best with amp volume up and the guitar volume controls down another reason to use premo low voltage pots and caps.

[TalismanRich]

The "geek" in me likes to try to understand what is going on with all these changes.

 

This guy has built a frequency model in Excel that will show you the effect of the volume and tone controls, treble bleed circuits, cable length, with both strat and HB pickups. It needs Excel to run properly, it chokes in OpenOffice (probably macros or something).

 

http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi...amp;thread=3627

 

What amazes me is the drop off at around 3K with the typical LP circuit. It's can be as much as 8 to 9 db relative to 1k when you drop the volume from 10 to 7 with the tone on 10. That's a HUGE drop.

[FredZepp]

Maybe you are describing a combination of some treble roll off and also driving the front end of the amp less..... a combination of the two.

[Kuz]

Here's the deal.... use 50s wiring and you can turn the volume down and it acts like.... well a volume knob (no loss of high end).

 

I have re-solder all my guitars to 50s wiring so I can use significant distortion and then just roll back the volume to clean up the sound. Solo? Then just turn the volume knob up.

 

THE ONLY downside to 50s wiring is that you really need to turn the tone knobs quite a bit to have the roll off in tone to occur (I would say you don't hear any tone roll off to almost "5")

 

I don't know why anyone would use any wiring other than 50s wiring!

[peacemaker]

Wow . . . the amount of knowledge and guitar geekery here is astounding! Thanks guys! I guess what I'm hearing is probably more or less what Zepp is saying: a combination of the slight treble roll off and pushing the amp a bit less. But this is at very comfortable, living room, baby-sleeping-down-the-hall volume. I'm not sure pushing the amp at that volume is really part of the issue.

 

Y'all really have me thinking about the wiring now . . .

[tulk1]

Personally, I like the sound of my pickups at full volume. No matter the wiring, I can hear a drop off in dynamics, or brilliance if you will, when they are not full on. I try to use a different picking method when I need to be softer/quieter. Honestly, I rarely use the vol or tone controls; set 'em, leave 'em. Then use other techinques to get different tones/volumes. And this is with Single Coils and H'buckers. Oh, and the PhatCats in the Prospect, as well.

[Trouble]

When you turn down volume or tone its basically turning down signal. You hear it as treble loss mostly or presence or brilliance or whatever but it is still signal loss. I try to set my amp where i can keep my volume around7 or 8 and still have a little more volume. I use a two channel amp live with a footswitch and set the gain channel a little louder than the clean for solos. Ive never liked turning down the volume on my guitar and I don't know why they put tone pots on 'em I never use them. Lol

[Trouble]

While we're on the subject has anyone ever seen a guitar with two volume pots wired in series? I knew a guy with a Hagstrom he could have one volume maxed and crank another like a gain to drive his amp harder. Not sure if it was stock but very cool. This was years ago and I'm pretty sure it was all passive no active electronics. Anyone know how to do this?

[212Mavguy]

When you turn down volume or tone its basically turning down signal. You hear it as treble loss mostly or presence or brilliance or whatever but it is still signal loss. I try to set my amp where i can keep my volume around7 or 8 and still have a little more volume. I use a two channel amp live with a footswitch and set the gain channel a little louder than the clean for solos. Ive never liked turning down the volume on my guitar and I don't know why they put tone pots on 'em I never use them. Lol

 

 

I'll bet that Trouble has a set of very sensitive, very skilled fingers! I wish I did!

 

I learned one solution to this situation from my boss at work, he has several vintage LP's. It's Keith Hilton's pedal steel volume pedal. The Hilton pedal uses a system involving a bar code reader...no pots. There are two trimmers, one to set the amount of minimum volume, and the other is a treble rolloff. The pedal is active, uses a wall wart. It provides a slight amount of clean boost, ande with the tone trimmer turned all the way up, there is a slight increase in treble and presence. I also like the sounds of my pickups running wide open, except that I sometimes turn down the neck PU a notch for some more bite when runnning neck and bridge simultaneously. You can get the pedal to behave like a guitar pot, zero to full volume or you can set the minimum to a level for rhythm, then push down for some more volume and/or gain, depending on how agressive the preamp setting is. On some amps I can go from clean to scream with this setup, even using a single channel amp, particularly when adding an attenuator to the tone chain.

 

I believe that the Morely volume pedal is potless as well. Dunno the particulars about that circuit. I really like having my Hilton pedal, FWIW. Peace.

[Trouble]

I'll bet that Trouble has a set of very sensitive, very skilled fingers! I wish I did!

Thanks but I can always think of a hundred guys better than me.lol

[mark555]

Here's the deal.... use 50s wiring and you can turn the volume down and it acts like.... well a volume knob (no loss of high end).

 

I have re-solder all my guitars to 50s wiring so I can use significant distortion and then just roll back the volume to clean up the sound. Solo? Then just turn the volume knob up.

 

THE ONLY downside to 50s wiring is that you really need to turn the tone knobs quite a bit to have the roll off in tone to occur (I would say you don't hear any tone roll off to almost "5")

 

I don't know why anyone would use any wiring other than 50s wiring!

 

Some things were pretty good first time round and just seem 'right' from the word go. I never had the problem with my P90's though, maybe they were just wired right.

[Kuz]

Some things were pretty good first time round and just seem 'right' from the word go. I never had the problem with my P90's though, maybe they were just wired right.

 

I rewired (just changed the solder points) on my 150 GT p-90 to 50s wiring about 7-8months ago.... and WOW what a difference in usable tones from the volume knob. No drop off in highs when turning down, and you can set the amp to heavier crunch and then dial in the best bluesy tones.

 

Of all the guitars that I changed to 50s wiring the 150 GT p-90 had the best impact!!!!!!