The basic 150/157/LP design is oldfashioned and outadated

[yoslate]

i just received my electro bone stimulator today...i hope it works...i need to get back to work

 

 

I wouldn't touch that line with a ten-foot pole!!!!!                                >

[brentrocks]

I wouldn't touch that line with a ten-foot pole!!!!!                                >

 

yeah, maybe i should have re-worded that :-X

[Halowords]

Sorry, but I'm late to this thread, and haven't read as carefully as I probably should.  My $.02  Halo, I think there's an essential fallacy in your first statement, born out by your last.  Tradition is hugely important.  Tradition only becomes such in terms of the passage of time, as an historic entity.

 

I can respect tradition.  My concern is that all too often it becomes fly paper trapping us in the past, kind of like mosquitoes trapped in the sap and becoming fossilized.  What if what has become traditional is no longer as relevant?  I brew beer, and a lot of the "traditional" practices are still very important to making good beer.  Other practices that were traditional are no longer necessary due to upgrades in technology and scientific research.  That does not mean shortcuts, but it means I can control whether or not I want my beer to be a clean and crisp modern German lager, or infect my beer with authentic bacteria so it tastes pretty much just like an English Bitter would have back when the germ(s) Brettanomyces were quite literally in everything.  In this case, it makes sense to practice good sanitation and allow that using modern day sanitizers, while not traditional, will help keep me from cross-contaminating my normal beer and wine with wild cultures from my authentic/traditional English ales and Lambics.

 

I think people should respect tradition, but be accepting of sensical change.  To me, tradition is not meaningless, however I personally value function over tradition to some extent.  I think hand-crafted guitars are better than factory-made because the end-product is better.  In that case tradition and the end product are juxtaposed.  However, if I can get a great sounding/playing guitar that is factory-made, I will not turn it down because it is untraditional.

 

Tradition not important?  Tell that to the marketing guys at Gibson; I reiterate the term "historic."

 

I would, however I doubt they would listen.  And I am not joking.  They are a business, and a successful one at that.  I am disappointed with the reports of quality control letting inferior instruments slip through, hence my decision (at least in part) to go with Hamer and Heritage.

 

Without exception, tradition was, at one time, precedent which became, over time, tradition, thus the genesis of and impetus for new precedent.  History matters in that it defines change.  So, I am, in fact, agreeing with your statements above, with the exception being your initial premise that tradition in and of itself is not important.  It's not simply that tradition "in and of itself" is not important, "tradition in and of itself" does not exist and, therefore, isn't valid as a premise to argue against.

 

slate

 

I agree with that.  However, I think people should strive to create new precedents and break new ground.  I am not bashing tradition or the role it plays, however update "traditional" things when it makes sense.  I think in the mind of some, tradition in and of itself DOES exist to some extent.  I say that because in some minds, it is something that is there because it was what they grew up knowing.  The precedents and broken ground are lost on the later generations and tradition becomes a marketing ploy and is spun in such a way as to be the right way.  In short, the reason behind the history is lost and the tradition can become hollow and merely a way to make money.

 

Ironically (perhaps), we are really agreeing on most of this.  Anyway, I will stop rambling.  I do not want to make this my personal soap box.  Good comments though (yours, not mine; I am not a megalomaniac ).

 

-Cheers

[yoslate]

Yes, I think we do agree on almost every point.  Your statements are thoughtful, articulate and well written, as are so many of the others who've posted on this thread.  I very much appreciate the tenor of the posts and everyone's interest and effort to mull this sort of topic over.  Great fun!  Thanks for your engagement, Halo!              ;D

[Thundersteel]

spank the plank

 

I'm not touching that one, either!

[Kazwell]

In short, the reason behind the history is lost and the tradition can become hollow and merely a way to make money.

 

George Carlin has a good line when referring to products -in his case, food products marketed as "old fashioned"

 

He says "Oh, everything nowadays is old-fashioned, old fashioned ice cream, old fashioned this and old fashioned that....."

 

and then he goes on to say "Yeah thats great, food from the "old fashioned days",you know, those days in a time before little things like.... health laws" ;D

[yoslate]

Nice reference, Kaz!  Carlin had a lot of stuff sussed pretty well!

[LH575]

electro bone stimulator?  Spank the plank?

 

Man, can't leave you fellas alone for 20 minutes. 

 

As for the Les Paul shape.  I suppose a lot has to do with the musicians that played it and us trying to emulate our heroes to some extent.

 

If I want to rock our some Led Zeppelin, I grab my H157.  If I want to play a little SRV, I'll grab my Strat.  Can't say I ever played Lenny on a LP style guitar.

 

So our heroes played them, so we play them.  That's a huge part of it.  I suppose Lenny would work on a 7 string Ibanez with the handle thing in the body, but I ain't gonna try it!

 

I think sound and playabilty has less to do with this than this hero thing.

[Spectrum13]

Fellows 

 

  First post for me as I signed up today for two reasons... First was this thread. Informative and entertaining! I kind of joined last summer with the arrival of a 150 to replace the 68 Goldtop I purchased new but some 10 years after, sold. Never did I expect this guitar to exceed the original in tone, playability and pride in ownership. Be it the traditional production methods, hand cut body, same physical birthplace or just the size of the operation... that guitar was happy to be born, crafted and adopted and played.  When we speak of oldfashion, take that word apart and we have"Old" and "Fashion" and l that I believe is implied by name on the headstock.

 

  Anyway, I arrived at the HOC site just in time to witness the plant closing and reorganization. That accumulated information became yesterdays call to another planet. The result was a soon to be delivered 137 and as the expecting parent, that makes me eligible to join the fun as you need two to be a member right?

 

 

   

[cosmikdebriis]

Welcome Specrum...

 

Most people's first post is stand alone but what the hey!!!

 

That's just Old fashioned and outdated... Right... >

 

By the way, if you don't post any pictures of your guitar... Some people.... get quite annoyed... ;D

[Spectrum13]

  :-[

 

  Being old fashioned, I lack that technology and the 137 was only shipped today.  If you must view, go to Jay's and see it under # 06104. The site was just updated as sold but with the wonders of the 21st  century, you can see as much as I can.

[Sparky]

Fellows   

The result was a soon to be delivered 137 and as the expecting parent, that makes me eligible to join the fun as you need two to be a member right?

 

Really? Two?  I had no idea!  Well, I guess thats all from me then!

[Thundersteel]

Some people.... get quite annoyed

 

Uh, what makes you say that?  :-X

 

 

 

BTW, a BIG welcome to Spectrum13!

[cosmikdebriis]

Uh, what makes you say that?  :-X

 

Hopefully... the  ;D would give it away that I was only joking. ???

[drewzee87t]

I think people use what works and continue to define that with new technology. Right now the retro is hip so people want retro-like stuff. It's marketing. Sell the old stuff to the kids a generation or two removed and they see it as new. I think with guitars, you have several proven designs over 60 years. These designs work and are proven. You add to the design with incremental improvements in technology, functionality, playability, and god help us, efficiency of production and distribution.

 

I have a parker fly deluxe, it is probably my number two axe. It is a fantastic guitar. I don't remember who dissed it in this post, but this is a guitar that took all the design elements, added the best available technology and produced a product that is, in my opinion, far superior to most of the "traditional" guitars ever built. It still doesn't sound like a heritage or a 59' gold top. It has a boatload of other sounds and cuts like butter, but it's no LP.

 

I have also been using guitar synths since the late 80's and the genesis of this technology is exhibited in a LP style built by Brian Moore. This is a traditional LP shape with the individual saddle pickups that allows all that the Parker Fly has, in a traditional body, and is pre-wired for the 13 pin Roland style midi system. This guitar is not my favorite, and I cannot find one reason why. It has great pickups and wiring, push-pull pot phasing, and all the goodies to control your guitar synth right on board. It's also very well built and setup is as good as any guitar I have ever had aside from the Fly. It also does not sound like a LP and some innovative design (e.g. curved top instead of carved) that I don't particularly like. I have considered selling this guitar but when I play it I cannot put it down for a couple weeks and don't want to part with it. It is the most versatile guitar I have ever owned. It's made in Korea. Maybe that's why I don't love it as much.

 

I am also into cars quite a bit, and if you look at cars, you see there are proven designs. People accept those designs because they work; they are proven over time. Manufacturers refine them with new technology advancements and new subtleties to the shape and feel. You also have some people putting out some very forward thinking vehicles (hybrids, plug-ins, tesla?) that are not maybe the best sellers of all time. If I get into my Prius do I get the same feeling that I would get jumping into my 67 Chevelle SS? Hell, no. Carmakers are trying to buy into this lifestyle marketing/retro BS, too. You have the re-intro of old muscle car brands, hemi engines and all other sorts of BS. It is also following tradition, for what that's worth. My modded 80's turbo Z will smoke these new cars too, but the Z wasn't a big seller, didn't have that tradition. Kind of like a Parker Fly.

 

Damnit Jim, I am an accountant, not the VP of Marketing for Gibson!

[cosmikdebriis]

I have considered selling this guitar but when I play it I cannot put it down for a couple weeks and don't want to part with it. It is the most versatile guitar I have ever owned. It's made in Korea. Maybe that's why I don't love it as much.

 

80's turbo Z

 

Korean or perhaps I should say Far Eastern guitars in general are usually dismissed out of hand as cheap rubbish. However, in my experience that can be far from the case. I own two Minarik guitars (Lotus and Goddess). They are both superbly made, to an almost unbelievable spec for the price, sound and play superbly.

 

My current "sofa" guitar is my 140. Partly because it is so light and partly because There's no strings on my 150... Yet. (but that's another story). Thing is, when I pick up the Minarik it always sounds so fresh and resonant. There's been a lot of design development gone into the body shape and it's also helped by being "caved". Don't believe that only LP's have sustain Somehow though it just feels "plasticky". Don't know why and I'm sure it's just prejudice on my part. As approx $250 the Lotus is an absolute steal but by and large no one's interested.  :-X

 

Thing is, if Heritage, or perhaps Patrick Eggle (to include UK luthiers), made it I'd probably be prepared to pay four times the price.  Of course should you try and buy a hand built guitar to this spec then it would cost ten times the price. Which... Brings me on to a subject that I've been thinking about posting soon about the relationship of hand made to CNC made guitars... That should raise a few eyebrows :-

 

Also... I used to own a 260Z which was a seriously cool looking car, always wanted a 240Z though :'( My fondest memory of the 260 was when it over heated on the way back from Cardiff and as I was in the middle of nowhere, with no water, me (and my girlfriend) had to wee into the radiator.   

 

Didn't help much ;D

[Thundersteel]

Hopefully... the  would give it away that I was only joking.

 

I knew that! 

 

Damnit Jim, I am an accountant, not the VP of Marketing for Gibson!

 

As heard on the holodeck of the Starship Boobyprize: "Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a gynocologist!"

[Kazwell]

I am also into cars quite a bit, and if you look at cars, you see there are proven designs. People accept those designs because they work; they are proven over time. Manufacturers refine them with new technology advancements and new subtleties to the shape and feel. You also have some people putting out some very forward thinking vehicles (hybrids, plug-ins, tesla?) that are not maybe the best sellers of all time. If I get into my Prius do I get the same feeling that I would get jumping into my 67 Chevelle SS? Hell, no. Carmakers are trying to buy into this lifestyle marketing/retro BS, too. You have the re-intro of old muscle car brands, hemi engines and all other sorts of BS. It is also following tradition, for what that's worth. My modded 80's turbo Z will smoke these new cars too, but the Z wasn't a big seller, didn't have that tradition. Kind of like a Parker Fly.

 

Damnit Jim, I am an accountant, not the VP of Marketing for Gibson!

 

Hit on a good point thinking past just guitars. I know in American culture the 50's remains sacred ground on many levels. Post WW2 prosperity. Of course the media makes the tmes seem better than they really were. Time has a way of erasing bad memories-perhaps with the exception of a little thing called McCarthism.

Thing of all the American icons that were born in the 1950's.

57 Chevy  Corvette, Thunderbird,  as a few examples.  James Dean , Marilyn Monroe, Elvis. Rock n Roll, Solid Body Electric Guitar icons Tele, Strat, 355, 175, LP-and one of the most important let's not forget, the Percision Bass

 

So it's not just Gibson marketing that pushes the LP. It's the marketing that plays on the cultural propensity of our society to idolize the era of the fifties. In 2008, it's easy to say. "America has seem better days". The LP to the music world -along with the others I listed- are relics and symbols and tributes to what we precieve as "the better days".

[brentrocks]

So it's not just Gibson marketing that pushes the LP. It's the marketing that plays on the cultural propensity of our society to idolize the era of the fifties. In 2008, it's easy to say. "America has seem better days". The LP to the music world -along with the others I listed- are relics and symbols and tributes to what we perceive as "the better days".

 

i couldn't agree more!!  this country is going down the crapper quick and it is easy to look back on these cherished days of old and see all the things that used to be good

[JohnCovach]

i couldn't agree more!!  this country is going down the crapper quick and it is easy to look back on these cherished days of old and see all the things that used to be good

 

Count me as an optimist when it comes to the present.  It's easy to be nostalgic about the past, but I think we live in very very good times.

[cosmikdebriis]

Count me as an optimist when it comes to the present.  It's easy to be nostalgic about the past, but I think we live in very very good times.

 

I was happier when I was 18 and girls had firm breasts...  ;D

 

Perhaps I should qualify that. I mean the girls I got to... erm... Well, you know what I mean >

[JohnCovach]

As far as I can tell, girls of this age still have firm breasts, but one of my sons would have to confirm that for me!

[Thundersteel]

As far as I can tell, girls of this age still have firm breasts,

 

Possibly, but they they may be filled with silicone as well!

[brentrocks]

As far as I can tell, girls of this age still have firm breasts, but one of my sons would have to confirm that for me!

 

I was happier when I was 18 and girls had firm breasts...  ;D

 

thats just great...i have a 2 yr old daughter...look what i have to worrry about in 15 yrs!!!   :-

[cosmikdebriis]

thats just great...i have a 2 yr old daughter...look what i have to worrry about in 15 yrs!!!  :-

 

Well... As a grandfather, let me just say. There's no point in worrying about it