Buying a Heritage as an investment

[Guest mgoetting]

I've noticed that it is more difficult to get the expected price when selling a good guitar these days. The corollary is that there are some awesome buys out there.

 

It's a gamble but I'm betting these babies will appreciate beyond what I can get with mutual funds over the next ten years. What's a better investment?

 

I don't want this to get into a broad financial management thread, but you get the idea.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[Steiner]

One cannot play a mutual investment.

[big bob]

If you don't do your "do diligence" neither are a good investment.

 

If you are young and you have time, a good researched mutual fund can make you a lot of money.

 

Guitars, Cars, Guns, are toys and should be bought for the primary purpose of enjoyment; if they go up in value good for you, if they fall over and loose a headstock oh well there will always be another.

[Dick Seacup]

They are finely crafted instruments, exceptional tools for creating beautiful music. Everything in life doesn't have to be about money. Buy them for the happiness and joy they will bring to you, your family and friends and others who hear you play. The craftsmen and craftswomen don't put their hearts and souls into each instrument so they can languish, unplayed, in a vault, behind a glass case, or under a bed. They have actually said they want the guitars to be played because that's why they build them.

 

Besides, if you think prices are crazy low now, you should have been on the scene about three or five years ago when you could buy H-150s for under $1000 and H-170s for under $750 all day long. The 80s shredder pieces, H-160, H-162, STAT, &c, would pop up for around $500. H-535s commanded more, but still less than what they go for today. I like to think that the HOC had a lot to do with raising awareness of the quality and value of these "workingman's tools" which led to a firming up of the secondary market, which gave cover for the factory to raise prices a bit, leading to a better solvency picture for them. That may just be wishful thinking, but I don't think anyone who has been watching for the last four years can deny that used prices have definitely trended higher.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts, they may not be yours, but there you have it. Buy them to play. Please.

[Patrick]

If you don't do your "do diligence" neither are a good investment.

 

If you are young and you have time, a good researched mutual fund can make you a lot of money.

 

Guitars, Cars, Guns, are toys and should be bought for the primary purpose of enjoyment; if they go up in value good for you, if they fall over and loose a headstock oh well there will always be another.

 

Holy shit!!!! Did you say head stock????? We're not supposed to mention that word for at least until another newbie brings it up But, seriously, both you and Steiner make good points. If a person has $3,000 in stock investments and that turns into $4,000 over the next 10 years or so (firstly, he ought to fire his stock broker) he's make some 30% and a thousand bucks . . . but did nothing else except worry about his investment as he watched it go up and down. If that same person bought a $3,000 guitar and kept it for 10 years AND PLAYED IT AND ENJOYED IT . . . even if at the end of the 10 year period he sold it for the same $3,000 . . . he's still ahead of the game. In this current market, the only way to make money investing in guitars is to buy something that is a proven collectable guitar. That usually means the very expensive ones . . . $10,000 and higher. They will always be in demand, regardless of the economy, because the people here in the US and abroad who are still buying and collecting are in a financial position where cost is irrelevant. Heritage guitars will probably not become "collectable" for many years to come (except for we the passionate few of HOC) if at all. Heritage guitars are still considered to be "the players guitar" Not too many people go out and gig with a $20,000 pristine 1963 Gibson Super 400 CES, but you'll find many with $3,000 Super Eagles at their gigs. Same with a $30,000 pristine 1960 Gibson L5 CES, but you'll find many $2,500 Golden Eagles. Think of the real '58 '59 & '60 Gibson Les Pauls. Who, other than the mega stars like Jimmy Page or Slash, do you see in the local pub playing one? But, there is no problem with the blue collar gigging man taking his H 150 out there. When it comes to Heritage guitars . . . buy the one you want and fall in love with. Don't even consider resale value. That's just my not so humble opinion and my usual pontification . . . or even better . . . it's Sunday, so let's consider it a homily

[brentrocks]

This is an interesting topic...especially to me, now that i have acquired a few LE/1-off Heritages. I mean the H 357 Korina, 20th Ann. H 150 and the H 137 DC Deluxe (1st production model). The 357 will be in my collection till i die...I promised Marv i would not sell it.

 

I dont see Heritage guitars appreciating to the $3-4000+ range for another 15-20 yrs.....i think that is when they wil be recognized for the true handcrafted instuments by the masses.

 

I am seeing used prices creeping up lately...a sign that the masses are beginning to see the light as to the quality of Heritage and the overall greatness of the A Heritage guitar VS the other mass produced intruments.

 

my 2 cents....

[Patrick]

This is an interesting topic...especially to me, now that i have acquired a few LE/1-off Heritages. I mean the H 357 Korina, 20th Ann. H 150 and the H 137 DC Deluxe (1st production model). The 357 will be in my collection till i die...I promised Marv i would not sell it.

 

I dont see Heritage guitars appreciating to the $3-4000+ range for another 15-20 yrs.....i think that is when they wil be recognized for the true handcrafted instuments by the masses.

 

I am seeing used prices creeping up lately...a sign that the masses are beginning to see the light as to the quality of Heritage and the overall greatness of the A Heritage guitar VS the other mass produced intruments.

 

my 2 cents....

 

Yeah Brent. . . you nailed it!! You're buying them because you love them. You love the overall quality as well as the story behind the brand. Also because you love the people and feel the connection. You just can't put a value on those tangible and intangable attributes. They're priceless. While I'm sure that somewhere in the back of your mind you were thinking when you bought Marv's prized H357 . . "gee, I bet this is gonna be worth some bucks someday", I'm sure that was not the motivating factor for you to pull the trigger. Because as you said, you'll never sell it. So right now . . . as well as in the future, that H 357 has absolutely no financial value to you . . . but it's still invaluable to you . . . . one of your prize possessions . . . . and who can take issue with that???

[brentrocks]

Yeah Brent. . . you nailed it!! You're buying them because you love them. You love the overall quality as well as the story behind the brand. Also because you love the people and feel the connection. You just can't put a value on those tangible and intangable attributes. They're priceless. While I'm sure that somewhere in the back of your mind you were thinking when you bought Marv's prized H357 . . "gee, I bet this is gonna be worth some bucks someday", I'm sure that was not the motivating factor for you to pull the trigger. Because as you said, you'll never sell it. So right now . . . as well as in the future, that H 357 has absolutely no financial value to you . . . but it's still invaluable to you . . . . one of your prize possessions . . . . and who can take issue with that???

 

You know Patrick....I thought i was the stupidest guy in the world when i sold the Gary Moore, eventhought it was a sale i had to do. But Ken loves it and i eventually found the 20th ann., which i totally love!

 

Marvs H 357 was a total surprise when he offered it to me...it was just as much of a "feeling priviledged" issue, owning one his personal guitars. I do think it will appreciate in the future, which may benefit Lizzy in the future...LOL

 

Resale is always in the back of my mind, but the 357, the 20th and the 137 DC, i bought because of the historical/personal reasons.

[yoslate]

At risk of redundancy, and certainly not as articulate as John's post.... "Just play the f***ing thing!"

[golferwave]

At risk of redundancy, and certainly not as articulate as John's post.... "Just play the f***ing thing!"

 

 

That's right Rob. Buy em and play em. No one knows what products will be worth 20 years from now so buy the gear you love and don't worry about it. Too many variables to assume they'll be investments.

[ronalr]

Well...not sure bout Heritage guitars as an investment.... but I am sure the guys at the factory made my 1964 SG Standard.......my friend bought it new in 64 then sold it to me in 1968 for 200.00...I gigged with it full time till 72 then part time till 1991....then it sat in it's case un played till 2004 when I sold it for $8,500.00 to help pay for my daughters wedding........I don't think that will happen again for me with my Heritages, PRS, or others....I will leave them to my daughter and son in law to do with as they please...(if they sell them it will be pure profit for them no matter what they bring).....

But I agree that you should buy an instrument for the enjoyment .....I just got lucky with the SG......that being said I sold my early 65 pre CBS Strat that I got new in 65 in 1972 when I stopped touring full time.....oh well

[TalismanRich]

Actually this investment thing is simple math.

 

 

Number of Heritage guitars bought ----- 4

Number of Heritages bought for investment -- 0

 

Net worth of my Heritage Guitars --- Priceless.

 

I'll let my kids decide how much can be made selling them.

[FredZepp]

Buying a Heritage guitar is definitely a sound investment...

 

an investment in sound, of the highest order.

 

 

Buying a Heritage guitar is a quality investment....

 

an investment in quality, of the golden age of guitar making .

 

 

 

Quality is never an accident;

it is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution;

 

it represents the wise choice of many alternatives.

 

 

[Jazzpunk]

I think the used prices will continue to rise as awareness grows but not sure about 'investment' levels.

 

More thoughts on the subject:

 

When will the used market wise up?

[pegleg32]

The beauty of the Heritage is the hand built quality and care that goes into them. They won't appreciate in value as long as the boys continue doing what they are doing. But just like other guitar manufactures have changed over the years, that may not always be true, and when it is no longer true, you better believe your Heritage will go up in value. But that is not why I buy them.

[tbonesullivan]

heritages are great guitars, however as an investment, custom shop Gibson reissues and Fender reissues will always take the cake in terms of resale value. They have a higher initial price, and name recognition.

 

However if you are buying a guitar to keep, heritage is a MUCH better value than Gibson.

 

Heritage guitars are players guitars.

[pcovers]

Your money will definitely provide a better return on your investment in almost any relatively sound 401k or mutual fund. Guitars, yes even Heritage, are generally very risky investments. Gibson, Fender - certain models may keep pace with inflation and even fewer might provide a profit. I will bet double your money that, ten years from now, Heritage guitars will still be under priced. But then, buying a Heritage offers a huge ROI on fun and enjoyment. That is the payback.

[Steiner]

Ahhhhhh... Infinite returns!!!

[squawken]

You know Patrick....I thought i was the stupidest guy in the world when i sold the Gary Moore, eventhought it was a sale i had to do. But Ken loves it and i eventually found the 20th ann., which i totally love!

 

 

 

Resale is always in the back of my mind, but the 357, the 20th and the 137 DC, i bought because of the historical/personal reasons.

 

You got that right Brent. The Gary Moore is great. I'm glad I bought it from YOU. I thought partly that I was buying as an investment, but it became totally out of love. And it still is. Maybe it's all a circle of Kharma in the HOC.

[High Flying Bird]

I have the piece of mind that no Wall Street shyster is going to piss away my 535s or my 475. That is investment enough for me.

[paul144]

One thing you can be sure of is that every time Gibson raises their list prices, your Heritage will catch a bump up in resale value (as well as used Gibsons).

You really can't go wrong with a used Heritage. I got some insane deals on my 150LW & H140 and would probably make about a 30-40% return if I had to sell them, but that's not happening. Think of it as art you can play, AND hang on your wall.

[smurph1]

They are finely crafted instruments, exceptional tools for creating beautiful music. Everything in life doesn't have to be about money. Buy them for the happiness and joy they will bring to you, your family and friends and others who hear you play. The craftsmen and craftswomen don't put their hearts and souls into each instrument so they can languish, unplayed, in a vault, behind a glass case, or under a bed. They have actually said they want the guitars to be played because that's why they build them.

 

Besides, if you think prices are crazy low now, you should have been on the scene about three or five years ago when you could buy H-150s for under $1000 and H-170s for under $750 all day long. The 80s shredder pieces, H-160, H-162, STAT, &c, would pop up for around $500. H-535s commanded more, but still less than what they go for today. I like to think that the HOC had a lot to do with raising awareness of the quality and value of these "workingman's tools" which led to a firming up of the secondary market, which gave cover for the factory to raise prices a bit, leading to a better solvency picture for them. That may just be wishful thinking, but I don't think anyone who has been watching for the last four years can deny that used prices have definitely trended higher.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts, they may not be yours, but there you have it. Buy them to play. Please.

+1

[212Mavguy]

IMHO...

 

used Heritage guitars have been somewhat slow to appreciate in value as sold on eBay for the last few years. With that said, my used 555 that I paid 1200 for plus shipping (select woods package, antique natural finish, Seth Lovers) would probably go 1600-1800 if it was in the same condition I got it, that's been about three years since that purchase. Some models will do better than others.

 

One thing that I am SURE of that is with the Gibson made sorta equivalents to certain Heritage models being far more expensive, and with the current rep/buzz in print and on the net going around that is negative towards Gibson for various reasons, market values of Heritage guitars overall should take a more agressive upturn within the next two years.

 

One reason why is because Heritage as a company operates in a manner that as a direct result avoids the kind of complaints that Gibson is recieving lately. That in time will cause folks to come over to the Heritage fold, increase demand for Heritage instruments, and that increase in demand will fuel increased values for Heritage instruments.

 

I also predict that the comparatively large rate of increase in HOC forum members recently happening will continue, and at an increasing rate of growth will occur over the next couple of years as well.

 

Peace.

[JohnCovach]

I've heard the complaints about Gibson and the way they have done business in recent years, but it's worth keeping in mind that it's mostly only guitar geeks like us that know about that. For most other folks, the Gibson name is strong and will remain so, no matter how many robot guitars they do or don't sell.

 

It's safe to say that Heritage guitars will not lose value; they will continue as a less expensive alternative to Gibson. If Gibson prices go up, so will Heritage prices. I can't imagine a day when Heritage prices will equal or surpass those of the similar Gibson model. If that did happen, I'd be delighted, because I have a whole roomful of these guitars. But I'm not counting on it.

 

I like Heritages because they are great guitars, a tremendous value when bought used, and a little off the beaten path.

[Patrick]

I've heard the complaints about Gibson and the way they have done business in recent years, but it's worth keeping in mind that it's mostly only guitar geeks like us that know about that. For most other folks, the Gibson name is strong and will remain so, no matter how many robot guitars they do or don't sell.

 

It's safe to say that Heritage guitars will not lose value; they will continue as a less expensive alternative to Gibson. If Gibson prices go up, so will Heritage prices. I can't imagine a day when Heritage prices will equal or surpass those of the similar Gibson model. If that did happen, I'd be delighted, because I have a whole roomful of these guitars. But I'm not counting on it.

 

I like Heritages because they are great guitars, a tremendous value when bought used, and a little off the beaten path.

 

John: You're pretty much right on, and I agree with much off your comments. However, don't totally discount the possibility of that one, all important artist, discovering the Heritage "mystique" and falling as in love with the brand as we are. It will take just one Larry Carlton, Slash, George Benson, Pat Martino, Eddie Van Halen type of name to push this company to the forefront. And, while that's not so immediately probable . . . given the quality of the Heritage guitars, and the flexibility of the owners to produce what ever a popular artist wants . . . it's not totally impossible either. Every year, around the end of summer, Larry Carlton plays the Blue Note, down town Manhattan (NYC). I've been at his last 4 appearances there, multiple nights each appearance. My American Express Concierge service gets my wife and I stage side seats. I've developed a pretty good relationship with his guitar tech. This year, I am going to bring my H535 and my H555. I use the parking garage right accross the street from the Blue Note. I will leave both guitars in the trunk of my car, locked with the valet key. If Dennis agrees to let Larry look them over and maybe do one or 2 songs with one of them, I'll bring them in. Hey . . . . ya never know. I know that Larry has quite a lucrative contract with Gibson . . . but he also plays Fenders, Valley Arts and other guitars. A few nights of exposure with an H535 or H555 in the hands of that guitar GOD will give Heritage such a bump that they will need to ramp up production to meet demand. The worst he could say is no.