carved vs. flat backs- what's the effect?

[Guest mgoetting]

Some of the semi-hollows have carved backs and some don't. What's the thinking there?

 

I'm wondering if the impact on tone isn't worth the cost of carving.

[barrymclark]

A bit of voodoo here. Not really, just really complex. Every little thing about a guitar makes up its tone. You can have to guitars of the same mass but shaped different and they will have a different sound even if only barely.

 

That being said, yes. It does.

 

I guess it depends on what your idea of tone is. A lot people think there is practically an encyclopedia entry on good tone meaning that there is good tone... and bad tone. I don't subsribe to that but plenty do. To me, there is only tone and it is up to the artist to decide what works for him/her. I can't tell you how many 'TONE MONSTERS' I have played through that sound great... when others play them.. but to me, and what I want to sound like, the sound I get from it is uninspiring... but they guy before me on it sounded great and I could listen to him for hours on it.

 

A lot of trial and error to getting the guitar you want.

 

You gotta put one of each in your hands and see what inspires you.

 

One thing to remember is that the guitar is like a painter's brush.

 

You better believe that the painter has a preference in brush. What the handle is made of, what the tip is made of. It's shape. Everything.

 

The person in the art gallery doesn't care what the brush was. They just care about the art.

[Hfan]

Lots of variables at play. Ones man's meat is another man's poison (old Commander Cody song I believe). Also, the physiology of our ear structures, brain, auditory and vestibular nerves etc etc play a part. We may actually all hear things differently.

[Guest mgoetting]

Classic archtops were carved front and back for brightness and projection, so I'm told. The semi-hollows are modifications of these larger guitars. But until recently the backs were still carved, at least on the ones I recall. The Millenium series has flat backs.

 

That's what made me wonder. Are they flat to create a different sound or are they flat because it doesn't really affect tone anyway and it's cheaper not to carve?

 

Someone at Heritage had to make a decision about this.

[barrymclark]

Classic archtops were carved front and back for brightness and projection, so I'm told. The semi-hollows are modifications of these larger guitars. But until recently the backs were still carved, at least on the ones I recall. The Millenium series has flat backs.

 

That's what made me wonder. Are they flat to create a different sound or are they flat because it doesn't really affect tone anyway and it's cheaper not to carve?

 

Someone at Heritage had to make a decision about this.

The carves were initially to imitate the archtops (thank Gibson for this). Now it is just done because it has been done for so long and they can sound great. It will affect the sound as there is added (or deleted depending on how you look at it) mass.

 

I don't know for sure, but I am guessing the guys at Heritage just don't see the point in reinventing the wheel. They make the guitars they like the sound of. Done and done.

 

While, you can turn sound into a mathematical equation with regards to how this and that material will react to this and that force, you can't mathematically produce how much someone will like the looks and sound of it. That is a shot in the dark. It is always the laboratory guitars/amps that people just hate. Sterile, they call it. The ones that are made in some dingy closet by dust covered carpenters are loved the most. See Line6.

 

Best thing to do is just grab a guitar if you can or try and listen to as many different people playing one as you can. Get an idea of how the guitar reacts in different hands if they must be other than yours.

[111518]

Carved tops are stronger than flat tops and therefore require less bracing to withstand the pressure of the strings, and therefore are more resonant. That's the basic design archtop mandolins, then guitars, borrowed from the string-family instruments --the beginning of the Gibson tradition, since it was a patent for an archtop mandolin that made Orville Gibson's name. The back is more reflector than resonator, but if it can be made lighter it is likely to contribute to the overall resonance of the instrument. (Again, borrowed I think from string-family instruments where the whole body of the instrument is "alive."

 

All this made perfect sense when the goal of archtops was to be loud and cutting enough to be heard acoustically over a swing orchestra. With the advent of the pickup, I think the whole archtop thing is a bit nostalgic, whether it is a big 18" carved solid top guitar or a 150 shaped and carved like a miniature archtop. (It's a nostalgia I fully engage, at least up to 17" ...18" is just just too big for me.)

 

Are Milli's built like semi-hollow guitars, or are they chambered --centered carved from a block? I've never owned one and don't remember the specs off hand. Seems that most of the chambered guitars follow the LP paradigm of carved top, flat back ... maybe a reference to tradition/evolutionary descent, just as with archtops with beautiful carved solid spruce tops with big holes cut for pickups. Or maybe because it is closer in size to the LP, they follow that model, even if the guitar is constructed with rim, top and back. I don't think Milli's are carved guitars, so the cost difference is the "fixed" cost of a press and molds to create the backs --which Heritage already has and uses to construct 535/555/550/Prospect, etc.

[Spectrum13]

Larry,

 

Millie's have a carved top, solid cut-out one piece rims/block up to the bridge with a flat non pressed back except for the Millie Eagle that has a carved back.

[barrymclark]

I thnk he is talking about solid bodies though. Not hollows or semi-hollows.

[Guest mgoetting]

I thnk he is talking about solid bodies though. Not hollows or semi-hollows.

 

Well, what inspired the questioning is that my semi-hollows have not had flat backs until I got a Millie. So I was wondering about it.

 

The solid bodies are a different story. One of the best things to happen to them was when Leo Fender contoured the back of the Broadcaster into the Strat. No, it's not a carved back. But no more sore ribs after long sessions. We can debate tone, but pain really grabs your attention.

[tulk1]

My Millie SAE had an arched back. No clue if it helped the sound or not. But it sure was cool looking!!

[barrymclark]

Well, what inspired the questioning is that my semi-hollows have not had flat backs until I got a Millie. So I was wondering about it.

 

The solid bodies are a different story. One of the best things to happen to them was when Leo Fender contoured the back of the Broadcaster into the Strat. No, it's not a carved back. But no more sore ribs after long sessions. We can debate tone, but pain really grabs your attention.

My fault then. Thought you were talking solid bodies.

[111518]

This is one of those threads where the nomenclature needs to be clarified:

 

What do you mean by semi-hollow?

Semi-hollow usually means there is a block, either full length of body, or at least under the bridge, but the guitar is traditionally constructed with top, back, and sides.

vs. thinline (no center block)

vs. chambered (as Spectrum describes Milli: center section is carved from a block.)

 

What do you mean by arched, or carved?

Archtop: usually means full hollowbody guitar

vs. arched top (usually describes LP style solid body)

vs. carved top

--could mean carved ala. the top on an acoustic archtop (vs. laminated and/or pressed), or

--carved ala. the maple cap on a 150

vs. contoured, which is what a strat is...

vs. laminated and/or pressed top/back, which would be arched, but not carved.

 

Confused enough?

[smurph1]

This is one of those threads where the nomenclature needs to be clarified:

 

What do you mean by semi-hollow?

Semi-hollow usually means there is a block, either full length of body, or at least under the bridge, but the guitar is traditionally constructed with top, back, and sides.

vs. thinline (no center block)

vs. chambered (as Spectrum describes Milli: center section is carved from a block.)

 

What do you mean by arched, or carved?

Archtop: usually means full hollowbody guitar

vs. arched top (usually describes LP style solid body)

vs. carved top

--could mean carved ala. the top on an acoustic archtop (vs. laminated and/or pressed), or

--carved ala. the maple cap on a 150

vs. contoured, which is what a strat is...

vs. laminated and/or pressed top/back, which would be arched, but not carved.

 

Confused enough?

Gettin there..I had a Gibbon LP BFG that was chambered..Great sounding instrument..Not sure if it was the chambering or the neck position P-90 though..

[111518]

Gettin there..I had a Gibbon LP BFG that was chambered..Great sounding instrument..Not sure if it was the chambering or the neck position P-90 though..

 

I happened to check the Heritage cite to see how they classified the Milli ... it's grouped with the semi-hollows, but, when you get to the actual description, the Milli is called a "semi-solid." And then there is "weight relieved."