before and after the original owners

[the jayce]

Just wondering how you all feel about a heritage guitar that is built during the time of the original guys that started heritage (you all know who they are) and then the ones that will be built after the originals retire.

For me I love the fact I own one now and not the later. Absolutely no disrepect intended toward the fellas that are learning the trade now to carry on heritages glorious guitars, and im sure they will be built with the same traditions, techniques and quality as they are now, but for me I just dont know if they will have the same vibe, nestalgia, and attachment as when the original masters where building them. This topic may have come up in the past and if so, sorry for resurecting it again but maybee it will make for some good conversation.

I would be very intrested in others opinions on this subject so all comments and opinions welcome.

[Gitfiddler]

Just wondering how you all feel about a heritage guitar that is built during the time of the original guys that started heritage (you all know who they are) and then the ones that will be built after the originals retire.

For me I love the fact I own one now and not the later. Absolutely no disrepect intended toward the fellas that are learning the trade now to carry on heritages glorious guitars, and im sure they will be built with the same traditions, techniques and quality as they are now, but for me I just dont know if they will have the same vibe, nestalgia, and attachment as when the original masters where building them. This topic may have come up in the past and if so, sorry for resurecting it again but maybee it will make for some good conversation.

I would be very intrested in others opinions on this subject so all comments and opinions welcome.

 

 

All due respect to the future torch bearers, but that is precisely why I made a custom order now rather than later.

[Jazzpunk]

Which of the guys who started Heritage are actually out on the floor daily these days anyway? I was under the impression that the old dogs had already passed on their expertise and were mainly supervising these days. Yes? No?

 

Personally, I'd like to hear more about the people I always see pictured in the factory photos that get posted. Haven't the 'new' guys already been carrying the torch and making the fine instruments that we know and love for a while now?

[Patrick]

I guess I can understand some of the concern, that only the original founders of Heritage guitars are of the expertise needed to produce the best of the best. But those that believe that is true are not being realistic and selling short the ability of people to learn from their mentors and in fact rise above them. Here's a prime example. Anybody familiar with the term . . . "The Kid"?? Jimmy D'Aquisto worked under and was mentored by John D'Angelico for quite a while. When the old master had enough and was completely burned out on guitar building and dealing with ass-hole guitarists like you and me, he left everything in the hands of "The Kid" and spent most of his time fishing off the banks of Brooklyn, NY in the Hudson River. John D'Angelico at that point couldn't have cared less about guitar building. EVERYTHING was left up to Jimmy D'Aquisto. He selected the wood, dealt with the buyers, did the building . . . everything. As it turned out, "The Kid" was far more innovative and skillful than John D'Angelico ever was. If you ever have the opportunity to closely inspect some of the guitars made by each of them, you'll see what I mean. When I walk the floor of 225 Parsons Street, I see, in some of those of the next generation, the fire that has long since left the original founders. Don't get me wrong . . . Jim, Marv, Jack French, Floyd . . . they are still involved and still passionate. But the FIRE now belongs to the next generation. There was a guy shaping a neck when I was there. I stood at his station for 10 minutes trying to get his attention just to say hello. He was so entranced in his work that I don't even think he saw me there. Have you ever seen Katie with a project in her hands?? Stand for a minute or 2 and watch Ray Noud at work on the finger boards. I currently have a Golden Eagle being custom built for me. If the original owners never touch it and it is built totally by the "next generation" I'll be OK with that.

[big bob]

I guess I can understand some of the concern, that only the original founders of Heritage guitars are of the expertise needed to produce the best of the best. But those that believe that is true are not being realistic and selling short the ability of people to learn from their mentors and in fact rise above them. Here's a prime example. Anybody familiar with the term . . . "The Kid"?? Jimmy D'Aquisto worked under and was mentored by John D'Angelico for quite a while. When the old master had enough and was completely burned out on guitar building and dealing with ass-hole guitarists like you and me, he left everything in the hands of "The Kid" and spent most of his time fishing off the banks of Brooklyn, NY in the Hudson River. John D'Angelico at that point couldn't have cared less about guitar building. EVERYTHING was left up to Jimmy D'Aquisto. He selected the wood, dealt with the buyers, did the building . . . everything. As it turned out, "The Kid" was far more innovative and skillful than John D'Angelico ever was. If you ever have the opportunity to closely inspect some of the guitars made by each of them, you'll see what I mean. When I walk the floor of 225 Parsons Street, I see, in some of those of the next generation, the fire that has long since left the original founders. Don't get me wrong . . . Jim, Marv, Jack French, Floyd . . . they are still involved and still passionate. But the FIRE now belongs to the next generation. There was a guy shaping a neck when I was there. I stood at his station for 10 minutes trying to get his attention just to say hello. He was so entranced in his work that I don't even think he saw me there. Have you ever seen Katie with a project in her hands?? Stand for a minute or 2 and watch Ray Noud at work on the finger boards. I currently have a Golden Eagle being custom built for me. If the original owners never touch it and it is built totally by the "next generation" I'll be OK with that.

+1 My favorite guitar the psychedelic Popsicle was Kate's first build (for herself) and WOW what a player..

[the jayce]

Which of the guys who started Heritage are actually out on the floor daily these days anyway? I was under the impression that the old dogs had already passed on their expertise and were mainly supervising these days. Yes? No?

 

Personally, I'd like to hear more about the people I always see pictured in the factory photos that get posted. Haven't the 'new' guys already been carrying the torch and making the fine instruments that we know and love for a while now?

 

I have been to heritage about 5 times or so this year for various things, (I am fortunate and only live about 15 minutes away) and everytime I have been there I either dealt with ren, marvin or the last time i was there which was last week to pickup a couple of truss rod wrenches it was bill that took the time to go over and grab them for me in between working on another guitar. The originals are very much involved in the guitars being built today and I have seen it every time I have been there this year and the years prior, from sanding, buffing or whatever thier in on the action after all these years. Of course the others are all busy doing what they do as well and my only point being that these guys have not just quite with the actual hands on work and are not just resting on thier laurells, they are as much involved as they ever where. I personally think thats awsome!

[the jayce]

I guess I can understand some of the concern, that only the original founders of Heritage guitars are of the expertise needed to produce the best of the best. But those that believe that is true are not being realistic and selling short the ability of people to learn from their mentors and in fact rise above them. Here's a prime example. Anybody familiar with the term . . . "The Kid"?? Jimmy D'Aquisto worked under and was mentored by John D'Angelico for quite a while. When the old master had enough and was completely burned out on guitar building and dealing with ass-hole guitarists like you and me, he left everything in the hands of "The Kid" and spent most of his time fishing off the banks of Brooklyn, NY in the Hudson River. John D'Angelico at that point couldn't have cared less about guitar building. EVERYTHING was left up to Jimmy D'Aquisto. He selected the wood, dealt with the buyers, did the building . . . everything. As it turned out, "The Kid" was far more innovative and skillful than John D'Angelico ever was. If you ever have the opportunity to closely inspect some of the guitars made by each of them, you'll see what I mean. When I walk the floor of 225 Parsons Street, I see, in some of those of the next generation, the fire that has long since left the original founders. Don't get me wrong . . . Jim, Marv, Jack French, Floyd . . . they are still involved and still passionate. But the FIRE now belongs to the next generation. There was a guy shaping a neck when I was there. I stood at his station for 10 minutes trying to get his attention just to say hello. He was so entranced in his work that I don't even think he saw me there. Have you ever seen Katie with a project in her hands?? Stand for a minute or 2 and watch Ray Noud at work on the finger boards. I currently have a Golden Eagle being custom built for me. If the original owners never touch it and it is built totally by the "next generation" I'll be OK with that. Very well said! your point is well taken.

[Jazzpunk]

My point was that if there are currently guitars being made from start to finish by the 'rest' of the Heritage crew than the tradition has already been passed on with great success! My guitars were all made in recent years so I just assumed that they were made by the 'new' guys (at least partially if not entirely).

 

Regardless, it does not matter to me. It is great that the original gang is still involved but as long as the craftsmanship and spirit remain intact, I will be equally proud to own future models.

[VJonathan]

I guess I can understand some of the concern, that only the original founders of Heritage guitars are of the expertise needed to produce the best of the best. But those that believe that is true are not being realistic and selling short the ability of people to learn from their mentors and in fact rise above them. Here's a prime example. Anybody familiar with the term . . . "The Kid"?? Jimmy D'Aquisto worked under and was mentored by John D'Angelico for quite a while. When the old master had enough and was completely burned out on guitar building and dealing with ass-hole guitarists like you and me, he left everything in the hands of "The Kid" and spent most of his time fishing off the banks of Brooklyn, NY in the Hudson River. John D'Angelico at that point couldn't have cared less about guitar building. EVERYTHING was left up to Jimmy D'Aquisto. He selected the wood, dealt with the buyers, did the building . . . everything. As it turned out, "The Kid" was far more innovative and skillful than John D'Angelico ever was. If you ever have the opportunity to closely inspect some of the guitars made by each of them, you'll see what I mean. When I walk the floor of 225 Parsons Street, I see, in some of those of the next generation, the fire that has long since left the original founders. Don't get me wrong . . . Jim, Marv, Jack French, Floyd . . . they are still involved and still passionate. But the FIRE now belongs to the next generation. There was a guy shaping a neck when I was there. I stood at his station for 10 minutes trying to get his attention just to say hello. He was so entranced in his work that I don't even think he saw me there. Have you ever seen Katie with a project in her hands?? Stand for a minute or 2 and watch Ray Noud at work on the finger boards. I currently have a Golden Eagle being custom built for me. If the original owners never touch it and it is built totally by the "next generation" I'll be OK with that.

 

I feel I must comment on a portion of this thread concerning John D'Angelico and Jimmy D'Aquisto. The "Old Master" D'Angelico was building guitars up until he passed away at the age of 59 in 1964. Yes, he loved to fish but he did care about his craft until the end. As you probably know, Jimmy D'Aquisto was his only apprentice and there was a strong bond between the two of them. D'Aquisto built and completed the unfinished guitars under the D'Angelico name following his death and carried on the legacy. The early D'Aquisto instruments were identical to the D'Angelico design and sound. The name on the headstock eventually changed. It wasn't until the late 60's that D'Aquisto's designs started to take shape. First with the headstock, then with the sound-holes and later the innovative body designs such as the Solo, Avant Guarde and Advance. He took archtop guitar building to a new level. To say his guitars were better than a D'Angelico? I am afraid not. They were different. Each had their own voicing. With all due respect, if you have played a number of them, like I have, you would know this. The build quality, attention to detail and sound on the D'Angelico instruments are excellent. They were orchestral guitars built in a time period commensurate to the music of the day. The same with D'Aquisto. In the mid 60's, music was changing and his instruments developed accordingly. I would like to point out that many D'Aquisto guitars had sloppy binding. Strange but true.

 

As you stated, the passion in the new generation of builders at Heritage has started to form. Let's hope that tradition is taken to a new level in the years to come.

[peteraltongreen]

Hi Jayce,

When I bought my first Heritage in 1986,I was unaware of the 4 founders of company,by name.I simply bought a great guitar,that happened to be made by the people who worked for Gibson,and didn't want to relocate to Nashville.I bought my second Heritage,an H575 (1988),with the same knowledge.The legend was born,and has expanded,quite rightly,with the men & their superb instruments.When I bought my first Gibson ( '59 Les Paul Jnr.),It was not because either Orvillle Gibson,or Lloyd Loar had anything to do with it,it was simply a Gibson,played by the world's best,and therefore a well made instrument that was easier to play than anything available in England at that time.The same applied to Leo Fender & Fred. Gretsch.I know the luthiers at Heritage are capable of maintaining a very high standard,and I will purchase products from Heritage in the future.

The problems lie with future management & company ownership.If,in future,God forbid,the company falls into the hands of a CBS (Fender) or Norlin (Gibson),and they just want product,and do not understand the items they are selling,the finished product may suffer,and we've had the best.

Every effort should be made to ensure that Heritage continues to be a world beating,quality built and designed AMERICAN made product,that all you guys over there can be well proud of.

Peter Alton Green

[pcovers]

The original post was full of indirect and very direct words that sent the primary message: "I associate a "feeling" with the current Heritage company and I am not sure I will associate the same "feeling" when the original guys are gone". Sometimes it is a good thing and sometimes it is, for me, the single most frustrating part of discussing guitars - this tremendous bias imposed on opinions and perceived fact that is created through the element of romance and lore associated with guitars.

 

I would be willing to bet that you could not tell a new heritage built with input by the original guys and a new Heritage that came out of Kalamazoo that had no input by the few remaining original guys. We are so, so driven by our romance of the history, the associations, the lore of it all that, for some, we are as attached to the "feelings" as we are to the physical evidence. Feelings are fine, but they skew and distort almost every single aspect of guitar opinion from wood to pickup winding wire to a dozen other guitar related components and topics.

 

I am certain that you could not tell, today, who built your Heritage (new guy or old guy) if you were not made aware before hand. But I am certain, for some, once you learned it was one of the original, it would take on a new aura of feelings based "vibe" and mojo. I like the history, but for me the guitar is either a quality piece (fit, finish, feel, tone) or is not and whose hands it passed through really has no bearing on the amount of vibe it has. The guitar has it or it doesn't and I have no doubt there are as many that have "it" regardless of being built by original guy or not original guy.

[Patrick]

I feel I must comment on a portion of this thread concerning John D'Angelico and Jimmy D'Aquisto. The "Old Master" D'Angelico was building guitars up until he passed away at the age of 59 in 1964. Yes, he loved to fish but he did care about his craft until the end. As you probably know, Jimmy D'Aquisto was his only apprentice and there was a strong bond between the two of them. D'Aquisto built and completed the unfinished guitars under the D'Angelico name following his death and carried on the legacy. The early D'Aquisto instruments were identical to the D'Angelico design and sound. The name on the headstock eventually changed. It wasn't until the late 60's that D'Aquisto's designs started to take shape. First with the headstock, then with the sound-holes and later the innovative body designs such as the Solo, Avant Guarde and Advance. He took archtop guitar building to a new level. To say his guitars were better than a D'Angelico? I am afraid not. They were different. Each had their own voicing. With all due respect, if you have played a number of them, like I have, you would know this. The build quality, attention to detail and sound on the D'Angelico instruments are excellent. They were orchestral guitars built in a time period commensurate to the music of the day. The same with D'Aquisto. In the mid 60's, music was changing and his instruments developed accordingly. I would like to point out that many D'Aquisto guitars had sloppy binding. Strange but true.

 

As you stated, the passion in the new generation of builders at Heritage has started to form. Let's hope that tradition is taken to a new level in the years to come.

 

V . . . I agree that it was probably an over statement for me to say that John "couldn't have cared less" about guitar building as he got older. Probably more accurate would have been that as John grew older and more confident of Jimmy's skills, he became less passionate and less involved. I have played both . . . D'Angelicos and D'Aquistos. Quite a few of them. I live in Toms River, NJ. A now deceased collecter whom you probably know of, Scott Chinery, also lived in Toms River, NJ. As you know, he had the world's larges collection of important instruments . . . including several D'Angelicos, D'Aquistos and Strombergs. I knew Scott. He considered me a "fellow collector" which was a gracious over statement. Compare to him, I was just a guy with 20 or so guitars . . . as Scott had well over 800. I had access through his curator, to his guitar museum, housed in his home, as did just about anyone else who wanted to see them. I also played all of Wayne Wesley Johnson's D'Angelicos . . another collector from NJ . . . now living and recording/performing in New Mexico. John D'Angelico was truly the master . . . or more appropriatly as you put it, the "old" master. But, mostly because during his time, there were very few guitar builders with his skills. In today's world of guitar building, John D'Angelico would nothing more than just another one of the great builders making arch top guitars. That's why I posted in response to the original question of, "are we as confident of an instrument built by the next generation at Parsons Street, as we are with those guitars that are/were built by the original founders of Heritage?" I'm sure that you've looked at the work of builders like Monteleone, Benedetto, Triggs, Mark Lacey . . in my opinion, Mark is one of the VERY best, Michael Lewis, Comins, etc., etc., etc.. I've played everyone of the guitars in the famous Blue Collection . . a tribute to Jimmy D'Aquisto . . 22 guitars in all, commissioned by the late Scott Chinery to be built in tribute to D'Aquisto's original blue rendering. They were built by luthiers considered to be the very best of the best . . . it included some of the afore mentioned names. Every guitar, without exception, was at least as good as any D'Angelico or D'Aquisto I have ever played. These guys didn't have a John D'Angelico standing over their shoulder and mentoring their every move, as Jimmy had with John. Yet, they rose up on their own to a very high level of quality and talents due to their passion. Up at Parsons Street . . the next generation, as they're being referred to, not only have the passion, but they have Jim, Marv, Ren, and up until his retirement, JP looking over they're shoulder much the same way that John did Jimmy.

One day, if not already, Pat will be as good as or better than Floyd is/was, at shading, staining and finishing guitars. Same with Marv's unique talents to shape a neck. Those guys are great teachers and mentors. Their pupils are already totally developed.

[Windstring]

Nice to see some discussion of archtop makers! I would add that Mr Mark Campellone is also one of the finest current makers, and his new guitars are decently priced too. And concerning the issue of "passing the torch", please note that Bob Benedetto, who was a student of D'Aquisto, now has a factory where I suspect most of the guitars are not made by him at all (as was the case when he allied himself with Guild/Fender). And finally, to turn back to the subject of Heritage guitars, my first encounter with a Heritage Golden Eagle, in 1998, was a revelation: I happened to be in a store where there were several "luthier-built" archtops, as well as some recent and vintage Gibson archtops, and, of course, there were a couple of Golden Eagles....one of those Golden Eagles was the best-sounding, best-playing, of all the archtops that I strummed, and I can tell you that I did numerous comparative strums until I was absolutely convinced. The point of this comment? It is simply to say that Heritage archtops are right up there, with the very best of all archtops ever made by anyone. Cheers.

[Patrick]

Nice to see some discussion of archtop makers! I would add that Mr Mark Campellone is also one of the finest current makers, and his new guitars are decently priced too. And concerning the issue of "passing the torch", please note that Bob Benedetto, who was a student of D'Aquisto, now has a factory where I suspect most of the guitars are not made by him at all (as was the case when he allied himself with Guild/Fender). And finally, to turn back to the subject of Heritage guitars, my first encounter with a Heritage Golden Eagle, in 1998, was a revelation: I happened to be in a store where there were several "luthier-built" archtops, as well as some recent and vintage Gibson archtops, and, of course, there were a couple of Golden Eagles....one of those Golden Eagles was the best-sounding, best-playing, of all the archtops that I strummed, and I can tell you that I did numerous comparative strums until I was absolutely convinced. The point of this comment? It is simply to say that Heritage archtops are right up there, with the very best of all archtops ever made by anyone. Cheers.

 

The quality of the Heritages vs the others is not a point in contention. The original poster of this thread expressed an interest in hearing our opinion on whether Heritage would maintain its' current level of "superbness" (if that's a word) when the original founders of Heritage . . vis-a-vis the old masters of Heritage . . . ride off into the sunset and begin the next chapter in their lives, as did J P Moates

[Windstring]

The quality of the Heritages vs the others is not a point in contention. The original poster of this thread expressed an interest in hearing our opinion on whether Heritage would maintain its' current level of "superbness" (if that's a word) when the original founders of Heritage . . vis-a-vis the old masters of Heritage . . . ride off into the sunset and begin the next chapter in their lives, as did J P Moates

 

Sure. I intentionally did not address the original point as I feel this will be determined by the future reality. I prefer not to speculate on things so hypothetical but others are obviously free to do so.