Thundersteel Posted September 3, 2007 Posted September 3, 2007 With the impending sale of Heritage Guitar, does anyone here think the prices of pre-sale Heritages will go up? I've got my eye on a few, and now might be the time to get them. I'm sure my wife will understand...
Heritage525 Posted September 3, 2007 Posted September 3, 2007 I would love a vintage burst 150! Maybe a good time to buy!
Dick Seacup Posted September 3, 2007 Posted September 3, 2007 There are a lot of factors that affect whether the values will rise or not. The content of the official announcement, when it comes. The form of ownership change that takes place. The status of current management and employees relative to the new organization. Then we'll have to wait and see what the new owner does with the line. All of that being said, I think that, as someone else mentioned in another thread, they've been building guitars on Parsons Street for 20+ years. A change in ownership might cause demand for the current guitars to go up, raising prices. Then again, it might not. I'm thinking that the guitars we have in hand are, mostly, the equivalent of late 50s or early 60s Gibsons. In another ten to fifteen years...
GuitArtMan Posted September 3, 2007 Posted September 3, 2007 The prices have been creaping up throgh the years as it is. I remember when a fully decked out 535 (super flamey, better hardware, Duncan Pickups, etc.) could be bought brand spankin' new for around $1100 - those days are gone. Whether Heritage will ever become collectible or not I'm not sure. They've always seemed to be the "affordable alternative" to the G word. The seem to have more of a "cult" following for lack of better word than general market appeal. I don't think G&Ls that were made when Leo was still at the helm are any more collectible than current G&Ls. In fact, most people see the move from a 3 bolt neck to a 4 bolt neck as a positive move. We'll just have to wait and see. I guess I'm hoping that the young blood that follows behind the footsteps of the masters are good students - it's a poor student that doesn't surpass his master. If they're good students things should get better!!!
sweet-tooth Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 The prices have been creaping up throgh the years as it is. I remember when a fully decked out 535 (super flamey, better hardware, Duncan Pickups, etc.) could be bought brand spankin' new for around $1100 - those days are gone. Whether Heritage will ever become collectible or not I'm not sure. They've always seemed to be the "affordable alternative" to the G word. The seem to have more of a "cult" following for lack of better word than general market appeal. I don't think G&Ls that were made when Leo was still at the helm are any more collectible than current G&Ls. In fact, most people see the move from a 3 bolt neck to a 4 bolt neck as a positive move. We'll just have to wait and see. I guess I'm hoping that the young blood that follows behind the footsteps of the masters are good students - it's a poor student that doesn't surpass his master. If they're good students things should get better!!! Well, Leo didn't actually make any G&L's. Whereas J.P., Jim, and Marvin actually put their hands on many of the guitars that have come out of that factory...from the early 50's till now. The fact that they are making their exit will surely drive up the price of Heritage guitars built while they still owned and operated the factory. Think pre-CBS fender. Also, they are a year behind on orders so when they do actually fire things up again, expect serious shortfalls in productivity. This will in turn drive up the price of whatever is on the market already. Simple supply and demand economics.
GuitArtMan Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 Well, Leo didn't actually make any G&L's. Whereas J.P., Jim, and Marvin actually put their hands on many of the guitars that have come out of that factory...from the early 50's till now. The fact that they are making their exit will surely drive up the price of Heritage guitars built while they still owned and operated the factory. Think pre-CBS fender. Also, they are a year behind on orders so when they do actually fire things up again, expect serious shortfalls in productivity. This will in turn drive up the price of whatever is on the market already. Simple supply and demand economics. Well I doubt Leo built very many Fenders for that matter, LOL!!! ;D Also, no one knows what the transistion plan is. I seriiously doubt any one would buy the Heritage brand without also buying back some training, expereince, support, etc. from the Heritage masters. These guys aren't gonna paking their fishing poles next week - they're gonna be around for a while to train the new guys. Heck, those new guys may already be in shop and we just don't know their names. Rendahl I believe is a bit younger than the other guys, so I would immagine he'll be around for a while longer yet. How big a shop are they? Who knows, maybe some younger Heritage guys will buy out the older guys just like they did with the G word. I'd like to think there's a young Paul Reed Smith, or Tom Anderson, or Don Grosh, or John Suhr or Terry McInturff, or Scott Heatley or Ron Thorn or (insert favorite boutique builder here) waiting in the wings at Heritage.
sweet-tooth Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 No doubt the Big-3 have trained up some wonderful, if only secret, talent to carry on. And of course the new owners would be fools of a special sort to not utilize whatever current staff is available to them. But the fact remains that the "vintage/ fine instrument" market is a funny thing that pays very close attention to subtle details. My experience tells me that when the deal is done and the dust has settled there will be a rush on "pre-sale" Heritage guitars. This, in addition to limited output, high demand and a huge backorder, will drive up the prices all across the board.
GuitArtMan Posted September 7, 2007 Posted September 7, 2007 No doubt the Big-3 have trained up some wonderful, if only secret, talent to carry on. And of course the new owners would be fools of a special sort to not utilize whatever current staff is available to them. But the fact remains that the "vintage/ fine instrument" market is a funny thing that pays very close attention to subtle details. My experience tells me that when the deal is done and the dust has settled there will be a rush on "pre-sale" Heritage guitars. This, in addition to limited output, high demand and a huge backorder, will drive up the prices all across the board. It's possible. But as much as we Heritage lovers would like to think it, Heritage is not a name brand like the G word, or Fender, or Martin. While we all know the value and quality they represent when compared to their G word counterparts, the general guitar buying public at large has never heard of them or at best says "Ugly peg head". It's possible that the people who currently own, love and buy Heritage guitars will pay more for "pre-sale" Heritage, I doubt the general guitar buying public will pay much attention.
golferwave Posted September 8, 2007 Posted September 8, 2007 I buy the "Vintage Guitar Magazine" "Price Guide" every year and I'll get out my past issues but the price has been rising each year. Not by leaps and bounds but by around 8 - 10% each year which outpaces inflation. I disagree that no one knows about these guitars. I think the market is well aware of the way and the place that these guitars are manufactured and if things change in Kalamazoo they will gain instant recognition in the used market. I love the headstock design. Back when these guys first started the Heritage company, Gibson was bringing lawsuits against everyone that had a headstock that remotely resembled theirs. It is unique and is "Heritage" so you can say what you will about it but I'm sold. Time will bring out the truth about all of the brands and the source of their manufacture. Henry Juszkiewicz is all about profit and he is now using laws on the books to manufacture parts for Gibson guitars in China and using a small amount of assembly in this country. With these laws Gibson is able to stamp "made in USA" on the back of the product. I will buy as many Heritage guitars as possible on the new and used market as they will make a jump when all of this comes to light.
Dick Seacup Posted September 8, 2007 Posted September 8, 2007 Henry Juszkiewicz is all about profit and he is now using laws on the books to manufacture parts for Gibson guitars in China and using a small amount of assembly in this country. With these laws Gibson is able to stamp "made in USA" on the back of the product. Seriously? Have any details/proof on that? Not that I would be surprised in the least...someone was recently telling me that a large number of parts for Harley-Davidson motorcycles are made outside the US, but it's apparently not widely known.
Gitfiddler Posted September 8, 2007 Posted September 8, 2007 Sub-assembly or parts from China?? No way! Are you sure you're not mixing Epiphone's business model with Gibson's? Henry's done some strange, profit motivated things in his tenure, but...........No way!
GuitArtMan Posted September 8, 2007 Posted September 8, 2007 I buy the "Vintage Guitar Magazine" "Price Guide" every year and I'll get out my past issues but the price has been rising each year. Not by leaps and bounds but by around 8 - 10% each year which outpaces inflation. I disagree that no one knows about these guitars. I think the market is well aware of the way and the place that these guitars are manufactured and if things change in Kalamazoo they will gain instant recognition in the used market. I love the headstock design. Back when these guys first started the Heritage company, Gibson was bringing lawsuits against everyone that had a headstock that remotely resembled theirs. It is unique and is "Heritage" so you can say what you will about it but I'm sold. Time will bring out the truth about all of the brands and the source of their manufacture. Henry Juszkiewicz is all about profit and he is now using laws on the books to manufacture parts for Gibson guitars in China and using a small amount of assembly in this country. With these laws Gibson is able to stamp "made in USA" on the back of the product. I will buy as many Heritage guitars as possible on the new and used market as they will make a jump when all of this comes to light. Well a price guide is only a guide and I find often doesn't reflect what people are willing to pay. I haven't been watching much lately, but I used to cringe at how little resale value Heritage had on ebay. It seems that only recently have the prices started to creap up, but I wonder how much of that is due to the fact the new prices have crept up. As for many people knowing about Heritage - maybe it's a west coast thing, but they just don't seem to be that popular over here. Those of us who do know abut Heritage often wonder if people on the east coast are more hep to them or something. I get way more people who don't know about Heritage, or maybe say "Oh yeah, I read about them but I've never seen one." than people who say "Cool Heritage." As for Juszkiewics raping Gibson, you'll get no argument from me. It's amazing what some people will pay just because it says "Gibson" on the peg head. Amazing. As for the Heritage peg head, they definitley look better in person than in photographs! ;D I'm fine with it, but one only has to see a few "Ugly peg head" poles on the web to notice that Heritage is near or at the top of the list everytime, so the general public isn't. Odd, I think the Hammer peg head is fugly but it nevers seems to make the list. Heritage has been in business 22 years. Maybe it will take the passing of the founding fathers to bring them into the public eye. As for me, I'm not going to start buying Heritages because I think they will go up in value. I'll buy Heritages because they are a guitar I'm going to play. PS I wonder how many of those fake Gibsons that show up on ebay have Henry's blessing...
sweet-tooth Posted September 8, 2007 Posted September 8, 2007 Current Blue Book on my guitar in 95% excellent condition used is $2,900.00 US. In 1999 I paid 2,400.00 new. I just saw one go on ebay for over 2,700.00 used and I know they go new for well over $3,000.00 (3,500.00+?) in many shops. These are all numbers at least somewhat based on the idea that they were readily available. Supply just went down but I seriously doubt demand went down with it. I expect the value of Heritage guitars to go up quite dramatically next year. Blue Book used is Blue Book Publications, Inc "Blue Book of Electric Guitars" 10th edition (Anniversary)
GuitArtMan Posted September 8, 2007 Posted September 8, 2007 Current Blue Book on my guitar in 95% excellent condition used is $2,900.00 US. In 1999 I paid 2,400.00 new. I just saw one go on ebay for over 2,700.00 used and I know they go new for well over $3,000.00 (3,500.00+?) in many shops. These are all numbers at least somewhat based on the idea that they were readily available. Supply just went down but I seriously doubt demand went down with it. I expect the value of Heritage guitars to go up quite dramatically next year. Blue Book used is Blue Book Publications, Inc "Blue Book of Electric Guitars" 10th edition (Anniversary) I'm not sure where you live but most dealers (and buyers) here look at the Blue Book as porcelain throne material. ;D I'm curios which model you have. Is it one of the archtop hollowbodies? I think these, and the semi-hollow bodies, are what Heritage excels at and are the ones players look for. It will be interesting to see what happens to the prices of older Heritages in the years to come. I haven't really watched the retail prices on Heritage lately, but it does seem they have gotten considerably more expensive the past couple of years. I remember when street price on a 535 was around $1000 and a super flamey one could be had for about $1100 - those days are long gone. When I see retail prices posted on dealer websites these days I'm kind of shocked. It used to be they were a fraction of the G word price for a comparable model, now they are getting nearly as expensive as the G word (not that they aren't worth it). PS I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just enjoying the debate. Cheers.
golferwave Posted September 8, 2007 Posted September 8, 2007 Some good points have been made. I have also heard that Harley Davidson is using some foreign made parts in the USA assembly. I guess that in the name of the "global economy" and "competition" it has become the way of the future. I saw a story and picture of Henry on the internet at the Chinese plant where the Gibson parts are supposedly to be made at. I guess it doesn't make any difference where a CNC machine is set up. As long as it's programmed correctly the parts will be the same from China as they would in the USA assuming the quality of the wood is equal. I'm for free trade and competition but I think consumers should be informed.
sweet-tooth Posted September 8, 2007 Posted September 8, 2007 I live in Oregon currently, but have lived in many other states over the years. When I bought my Sweet16 I was living in Los Angeles. Everywhere I've gone I of course have searched out the local shops to see whats on offer and check local prices. As well, I have been haunting the web for years...I like to stay informed as I fancy myself a fledgling collector/ connoisseur. Over the last few years I have seen interest in Heritage steadily go up. Every description I read these days say basically the same thing; Heritage guitars (especially hollow and semihollow archtops, yes) are hands-down the best deal in the world considering what you get in terms of craftsmanship, tone, playability, history and value. Here's what others are saying: "I wanted an old 335 from the late 50's early 60's but I didnt have, you know, TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS laying around. Having said that, this 2006 model is made just like they made them in the 50's." -Harmony Central, H535 review "The guys at Heritage know what they are doing when it comes to building top quality guitars.I played a pair of Guild Artist Awards for about 20 years before i got these made for me".... As a friend of mine who is a guitar connoisseur in CA commented,"These guitars are as good as it gets".I couldn't agree more." -Harmony Central, Sweet16 review "I can't believe anyone would buy a Gibson 175, after playing and comparing the two (even at the same price, let alone with the Heritage selling for about half)." -Harmony Central, H575 review Current listing on a used sweet 16: http://www.gbase.com/Stores/Gear/GearDetai...px?Item=1729493 Some current ebay listings: http://cgi.ebay.com/Heritage-custom-575-es...1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/Heritage-Electric-Guit...1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/Heritage-H-150-H-150-F...1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/Heritage-Guitar-H150P-...1QQcmdZViewItem And last and maybe least, the wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_Guit...ossible_Closure
Gitfiddler Posted September 8, 2007 Posted September 8, 2007 Hey, the Heritage Owners Club is mentioned/linked in that Wikepedia site. Very cool! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_Guit...ossible_Closure Another observation/comment about current Heritage prices...I'm noticing some dealers holding firm at Heritage prices and not negotiating much these days. Guess that's what happens when demand remains stable or increases and supply is slowed by the factory's current moratorium. Basic economics at work.
sweet-tooth Posted September 9, 2007 Posted September 9, 2007 Another observation/comment about current Heritage prices...I'm noticing some dealers holding firm at Heritage prices and not negotiating much these days. Guess that's what happens when demand remains stable or increases and supply is slowed by the factory's current moratorium. Basic economics at work. Exactly what I've been saying! LOL
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