tune-a-matic vs ebony bridge saddle

[Patrick]

I'm curious as to your opinions about how a metal type (tune-a-matic) bridge saddle might affect the tone, acoustically and electrically amplified, of a hollow body jazz body. My L5 Historic Reissue came with a tune-a-matic and I immediately changed it to an ebony, so I don't really remember how it sounded before I changed it. I also noticed that the Heritage Kenny Burrells, both the Super KB and the other Kenny Burrell model (name escapes me right now) both have tune-a-matics. I also noticed that Gregg DeLorto's split block inlay Golden Eagle has the tune-a-matic. I'm wondering if there would be a change in the guitar's warmness.

[Guest mgoetting]

I know I'm going to be wrong on this, but here goes.

 

The strings are vibrating metal. It seems a metal bridge should transmit more fully than wood.

 

Maybe it's desirable for a wooden bridge to serve as a filter for the higher frequencies. I don't know. But even the wooden saddles have to transmit through steel screws.

 

I'll bet rosewood and ebony are used because they're traditional and look nice. But steel you can adjust more easily. And you can trust steel- just view Conan the Barbarian, his dad explains.

 

Maybe an acoustic engineer or a physicist can come up with some explanation about this.

[barrymclark]

My 2 cents.

 

Truly both a metal and wooden bridge are being vibrated. They will absolutely have a different sound due to their resonant frequencies being different. As far as being a full sound, that all depends on what you mean by full. A term very open to interpretation.

 

You are right that the energy transference does have to go through two thumbwheel screws; however, that energy has been conditioned by ebony as well so the tone being fed those screws has already been fundamentally changed by that ebony AND, in the case of an electric, it will have to go BACK through the thumbscrews through the ebony bridge and back to the strings for the strings to be affected by the materials of the guitar and then the magnetic field at the pickups draw on that. Fun, eh? haha. Same thing happens at the nut. Singling out the bridge, though, since there is so much more ebony than steel, here, the ebony, which is pretty high toned in its own right, will have a more dominating effect from what i can figure. Also, since the TOM bridge has moving parts, energy gets lost in the joining of those parts. The ebony bridge, being one piece, the entirety of it, will vibrate freely. That is where Tone Pros is making their mark: tightly engineering their TOMs.

[Patrick]

I know I'm going to be wrong on this, but here goes.

 

The strings are vibrating metal. It seems a metal bridge should transmit more fully than wood.

 

Maybe it's desirable for a wooden bridge to serve as a filter for the higher frequencies. I don't know. But even the wooden saddles have to transmit through steel screws.

 

I'll bet rosewood and ebony are used because they're traditional and look nice. But steel you can adjust more easily. And you can trust steel- just view Conan the Barbarian, his dad explains.

 

Maybe an acoustic engineer or a physicist can come up with some explanation about this.

 

Wooden bridge serving as a filter for higher frequencies could account for the warmer tone. I guess the next time I'm ready for a string change on my L5, I'm gonna go back and forth from the tune-a-matic and the ebony saddle and try to listen a little more carefully . . .

 

As for Conan's dad's explanation . . . . . as I remember it, Conan's mom kinda lost her head a little in the subsequent scene . . . . . if she could, I'm sure she would attest to the merits of steel

[jrfreed]

My 2 cents.

 

Truly both a metal and wooden bridge are being vibrated. They will absolutely have a different sound due to their resonant frequencies being different. As far as being a full sound, that all depends on what you mean by full. A term very open to interpretation.

 

You are right that the energy transference does have to go through two thumbwheel screws; however, that energy has been conditioned by ebony as well so the tone being fed those screws has already been fundamentally changed by that ebony AND, in the case of an electric, it will have to go BACK through the thumbscrews through the ebony bridge and back to the strings for the strings to be affected by the materials of the guitar and then the magnetic field at the pickups draw on that. Fun, eh? haha. Same thing happens at the nut. Singling out the bridge, though, since there is so much more ebony than steel, here, the ebony, which is pretty high toned in its own right, will have a more dominating effect from what i can figure. Also, since the TOM bridge has moving parts, energy gets lost in the joining of those parts. The ebony bridge, being one piece, the entirety of it, will vibrate freely. That is where Tone Pros is making their mark: tightly engineering their TOMs.

 

Excellent points regarding mass and "vibrational effiency" of a one piece bridge etc. I think in addition, the surface area the strings are resting on the bridge is greater on a 1 pc ebony bridge vs. a TOM saddle which would only add to the warmer/rounder tones.

[Gitfiddler]

Here's my over-simplified response: The ebony bridge is definitely warmer toned than the t.o.m. metal bridge.

 

I suppose live players want a bit more snap or note definition, plus better tuning stability which may be why we see more players using t.o.m. bridges on their archtops.

 

In the recording studio, the engineer can compensate with fine-tuned EQ no matter what type of bridge is used. Pat Martino always sounds like he's playing through a big hollow jazz box, even though he's using a semi-hollow, thin bodied guitar with a metal t.o.m. bridge.

 

That's only my guess however.

[SteveHoffman]

Here's my over-simplified response: The ebony bridge is definitely warmer toned than the t.o.m. metal bridge.

 

I suppose live players want a bit more snap or note definition, plus better tuning stability which may be why we see more players using t.o.m. bridges on their archtops.

 

In the recording studio, the engineer can compensate with fine-tuned EQ no matter what type of bridge is used. Pat Martino always sounds like he's playing through a big hollow jazz box, even though he's using a semi-hollow, thin bodied guitar with a metal t.o.m. bridge.

 

That's only my guess however.

I think the only issue is how sensitive are you to intonation problems? If you are, a "Tune-O-Matic" is for you no matter what guitar you play. If you want the classic tone, you need a wooden bridge and will ignore the slight intonation imperfections to get that rich vintage tone.

 

It's always your call but please, NEVER change out the bridge on a vintage classic guitar, it's just darn wrong!

[barrymclark]

I have three guitars with wooden bridges and only one TOM.

 

My wooden bridges are so well intonated, you wouldn't know the difference outside of tone. I love the sound of wooden bridges and prefer them on hollows.

[Jazzpunk]

I love the TOM bridge on my 525 but I've been thinking about switching to a wood bridge on my Groovemaster. My Groovemaster is pretty bright so I think a wooden bridge would compliment it nicely by taming some of the highs.

[barrymclark]

I love the TOM bridge on my 525 but I've been thinking about switching to a wood bridge on my Groovemaster. My Groovemaster is pretty bright so I think a wooden bridge would compliment it nicely by taming some of the highs.

I'm looking for a bridge that will tame my suck-titude.

[Patrick]

I'm looking for a bridge that will tame my suck-titude.

 

 

Hey man . .. . I bought one of those bridges a while ago. I gotta caution you though, it's real expensive. But it works!! When you put this suck-titude taming bridge on your guitar . . . . no one can ever hear you play. Thus, your suck-titude is cured!!. I put this thing on my guitar, and now my wife says to me "hey, I can't hear what you playing. It seems like you don't suck at guitar anymore." I'm tellin' ya man . . . it really works. You can find it at . . . . yourguitarplayingreallysucks.com

[smurph1]

A method that works for me, is taking the speaker out of my amp..AWEsome!

[6ringing]

Hi all (just joined the forum)!

 

Here's my $.02...TOM will be brighter with more sustain, the wood bridge, less sustain but a warmer woodier sound. I usually prefer a wood bridge, but I never say never.

 

Matt

[groovin]

I've used a TOM as well as the factory supplied rosewood bridge on my 575. I found that the rosewood bridge was a better match as it tended to reduce the edge imparted to the sound by the HRW pickups. My problem is that the rosewood bridge is compensated for 13 gauge strings and a wound G whereas I use 10s with a plain G. I therefore need to use a TOM to intonate accurately. The TOM will sound brighter and will sustain longer and sometimes make the guitar feedback easier. The rosewood bridge tends to absorb a little vibration giving a warmer or less incisive sound with a rapid decay adding more "plunk" to the sound. Its horses for courses as they say.

[cod65]

I've used a TOM as well as the factory supplied rosewood bridge on my 575. I found that the rosewood bridge was a better match as it tended to reduce the edge imparted to the sound by the HRW pickups. My problem is that the rosewood bridge is compensated for 13 gauge strings and a wound G whereas I use 10s with a plain G. I therefore need to use a TOM to intonate accurately. The TOM will sound brighter and will sustain longer and sometimes make the guitar feedback easier. The rosewood bridge tends to absorb a little vibration giving a warmer or less incisive sound with a rapid decay adding more "plunk" to the sound. Its horses for courses as they say.

 

 

ya, Groovin you could go the route of having someone carve you a new ebony 'intoned' for that gauge of strings. Or you could get out the ole pen knife !

 

 

here's my recent excursions with T-O-M and 575. results: brighter and more rock-and roll (duh).

[Vincelewis]

Hey Patrick and guys...Funny that this should come up just when I...Well, let me say this first..My 16 inch Heritages all have ebony bridges and sound beautifully warm acoustically. I have my two custom 16s and a 575MH. I do have a H576 has a tom, and is a laminated stop tailpiece as you know. I grew up as a total Wes Montgomery fan, and always wanted a which single pup 17 inch, so I ordered my trans cherry Golden Eagle two years ago as an investment, and really love it, even though I find the 16 inchers more comfortable overall to play. Prior to my becoming a Heritage artist I played a 1973 L5 with an ebony top for 18 years for my living, then discovered Heritage and have never looked back or performed with that guitar since 1991. I just put a black tom on my Golden Eagle, and for that particular guitar it is terrific. That is because I use it live always plugged in for concerts and gigs, and the brighter and a little less acoustic sound isn't an issue to me. The electric sound is a little brighter, with more sustain now, and the radius matches the fingerboard perfectly so I can have my ridiculously low action. (Which drives guitar techs crazy...) I like the fact that the intonation can be set perfectly, and the sound is different ( not better, just different) that the ebony topped ones. So I guess my thinking is, have as many Heritage guitars as you can and make them each different and enjoy their uniqueness...

[High Flying Bird]

So I guess my thinking is, have as many Heritage guitars as you can and make them each different and enjoy their uniqueness...

 

My wife thinks so highly of you every time she puts in your Christmas CD. I hope she doesn't read your post above. She might just decide to come with me to PSP3 to have a little talk with you. I however, think you give excellent advice......

[Jazzpunk]

Hey Patrick and guys...Funny that this should come up just when I...Well, let me say this first..My 16 inch Heritages all have ebony bridges and sound beautifully warm acoustically. I have my two custom 16s and a 575MH. I do have a H576 has a tom, and is a laminated stop tailpiece as you know. I grew up as a total Wes Montgomery fan, and always wanted a which single pup 17 inch, so I ordered my trans cherry Golden Eagle two years ago as an investment, and really love it, even though I find the 16 inchers more comfortable overall to play. Prior to my becoming a Heritage artist I played a 1973 L5 with an ebony top for 18 years for my living, then discovered Heritage and have never looked back or performed with that guitar since 1991. I just put a black tom on my Golden Eagle, and for that particular guitar it is terrific. That is because I use it live always plugged in for concerts and gigs, and the brighter and a little less acoustic sound isn't an issue to me. The electric sound is a little brighter, with more sustain now, and the radius matches the fingerboard perfectly so I can have my ridiculously low action. (Which drives guitar techs crazy...) I like the fact that the intonation can be set perfectly, and the sound is different ( not better, just different) that the ebony topped ones. So I guess my thinking is, have as many Heritage guitars as you can and make them each different and enjoy their uniqueness...

 

Great post Vince. Thanks for the insights!

[yoslate]

Many, many valid points made in a bunch of good posts. My $.02: I ordered my Super Eagle through Jay, and as primarily a "blues" guy, thought the T-O-M would produce a tone more appropriate to what I play, and also make string bending, not so much a part of the jazz player's repertoire, less problematic. It was fine, if a bit bright for what I thought a Big spruce archtop should sound like. Of course, Jay had included the ebony bridge. I can resist anything but temptation, so at the first or second string change, I put the ebony bridge on. No contest, regarding tone. Big, warm, sweet...just as it should be. And I, like Vince, have a 576, with the T-O-M. Seems appropriate on that guitar, and I'd never even thought about switching that out. But on the Big Girl, only the ebony will do. And intonation and string bending just haven't been an issue.

[kbp810]

Many, many valid points made in a bunch of good posts. My $.02: I ordered my Super Eagle through Jay, and as primarily a "blues" guy, thought the T-O-M would produce a tone more appropriate to what I play, and also make string bending, not so much a part of the jazz player's repertoire, less problematic. It was fine, if a bit bright for what I thought a Big spruce archtop should sound like. Of course, Jay had included the ebony bridge. I can resist anything but temptation, so at the first or second string change, I put the ebony bridge on. No contest, regarding tone. Big, warm, sweet...just as it should be. And I, like Vince, have a 576, with the T-O-M. Seems appropriate on that guitar, and I'd never even thought about switching that out. But on the Big Girl, only the ebony will do. And intonation and string bending just haven't been an issue.

Glad to read this post (and thread) as this is something thats been on the back of my mind with my 575 on it's way (speaking of which, UPS say's it's out for delivery now )

 

- I am primarily blues as well, which is why when I first came across that 575 for sale I didn't jump at it right away (I lean more towards having a little growl rather then clean when I play)... but when I played Steiner's 575 and tried a little dirt on the amp it sounded fantastic, which is what sealed the deal for me.

 

Between what I heard that day and what I've been reading here seems like I have no reason for me to contemplate a TOM any further

[Vincelewis]

My wife thinks so highly of you every time she puts in your Christmas CD. I hope she doesn't read your post above. She might just decide to come with me to PSP3 to have a little talk with you. I however, think you give excellent advice......

 

 

Thanks I appreciate that...and I also appreciate all of you guys and the great comments on this site...We are truly blessed to be Heritage owners...Thats for sure...

[jazzrat]

Just put a tune-o matic on my 575. Brighter, less woody, more sustain.

It's still a very nice tone just different.

I have to use 10's so I need the adjustment the TOM offers.

[Vincelewis]

Just put a tune-o matic on my 575. Brighter, less woody, more sustain.

It's still a very nice tone just different.

I have to use 10's so I need the adjustment the TOM offers.

 

So there you go...Herb Ellis, Wes Montgomery, and several of the other guys I have gotten to play with used the TOM on L5's and 175's etc, and it is just different and a total matter of taste...That's what makes it all fun right?

[cod65]

So there you go...Herb Ellis, Wes Montgomery, and several of the other guys I have gotten to play with used the TOM on L5's and 175's etc, and it is just different and a total matter of taste...That's what makes it all fun right?

 

you played with Wes Montgomery?

[Vincelewis]

you played with Wes Montgomery?

 

Nope...Never with Wes, But with Herb Ellis...Sorry if I mislead by bad typing there...Just meant that Wes and several of my era guys used the TOM....Herb preferred it....