Eagle Prototype?

[Guest mgoetting]

Jazzpunk . . . . the last time I got involved in a "debate" on a thread that you were a part of, you became offended and offered in an open letter your "resignation" from HOC. Well, it seems, here we go again. I have read you last 3 posts and I tried . . . desperately . . . not to respond. I have failed.

 

To your first post; you would like to play a Gibson Citation and a Heritage Citation (what ever that is) side by side to see if you could hear and feel a $20,000 difference. If you think the price difference is about the feel and the sound . . . then you're totally clueless. Also, as you know, Heritage doesn't make a Citation, so I'm assuming that you are referencing one of Heritage's other top of line arch tops. Further to that, the Citation guitars that are the of the highest value and most collectable were in fact made at Parsons Street.

 

Then you ask; "who are some of the top tier players that are currently playing a new Citation" As was mentioned by someone before me . . . the Citation is not purchased by the working jazz artist to be used as one of the tools of his/her trade. It's bought as a collectable piece of guitar making history and dare I say . . . art. I'll bet that the people who own Citations heven't even played them enough for them to have truly "opened up" to their true tonal potential.

 

Lastly, you ask how many jazz players are still playing Gibsons? My only response to that is . . . you're kidding . . right??"

 

Have you ever even seen a Gibson Citation . . live. Or held and played one? Take a close look at the detail, focus, care and workmanship that went into Fredzepp's Centurion. That's what every Citation looks and feels like. The comparison of a Citation to a Golde Eagle, which was the post that started this thread, is an unfair injustice to the Golden Eagle. Do you think for one minute that you can have Heritage build you a Heritage Centurion for $6,600?? After I added all the upcharges to the Golden Eagle currently being built for me the list price was over $10,000 . . . and it isn't gonna be nearly what Fredzepp's Centurion is. If you're gonna compare guitars and costs, then compare the Citation to the Centurion. That's more of a fair comparison. Do you think you can feel and hear the difference in a true authentic 1959 Gibson Les Paul as compared to an R9 or a vert well made clone?? You talk about being able to hear and feel a $20,000 difference? How about a quarter of a million dollar difference??

 

I hope not to offend you . . . but your 3 posts really got under my finger nails. If we all try hard enough, we could still love Heritage without constantly bashing Gibson. I have sometimes visited the Les Paul forum. There have occasionally been posts referencing the H150. I have never read a single disparaging comment.

 

The Heritage arch top guitar is without a doubt the greatest dollar value on the market for a high quality and beautiful American made arch top. That's why I own 6 of them. But a Gibson Citation . . . is a Gibson Citation!!!

 

I had a chance to see Johnny Smiths and a Citation back when Gibson was in Kalamazoo. I agree. The Citation is not to be played. I will bet even the relatively common Smiths were looked at or kept in a case much more than they were played. 175s were what people gigged with.

[Jazzpunk]

Jazzpunk . . . . the last time I got involved in a "debate" on a thread that you were a part of, you became offended and offered in an open letter your "resignation" from HOC. Well, it seems, here we go again. I have read you last 3 posts and I tried . . . desperately . . . not to respond. I have failed.

 

I hope not to offend you . . . but your 3 posts really got under my finger nails.

 

Patrick, I am honestly not offended in the least. Why the hell would I be?

 

I don't need to agree with everything you say in order to respect that you have your own opinion. Maybe once you cool off and realize that nothing I have said in this thread was a personal attack on you, you will respect mine as well.

 

As far as past threads go, I'd suggest letting sleeping dogs lie. If, however, you have some sort of lingering issue with me than feel free to PM me about it. I don't think we're going to agree on much outside of a mutual appreciation for Heritage guitars but if you need to get something off your chest, I'm all ears.

[Kuz]

I will jump (and not take sides) but what JP is talking about is the incredible Heritage Centurion that FresZepp owns, at least I think that is what he means.

 

And for what it's worth, I believe Fred's Centurion could hold it's own.

 

The other part of the thread about Jazz Cats playing Gibson archtops, I think JP was referring to NEW Gibson Archtops. I feel this is a fair question.

I also think we all know that countless incredible jazz guitarist play vintage Gibson archtops.

 

Again, just my .02, I don't have a dog in this fight. And from one who has maybe crossed the line in blind passion and then regretted it, I didn't feel any animosity was presented from either party. Just some good honest discussion.

 

John

[Patrick]

Patrick, I am honestly not offended in the least. Why the hell would I be?

 

I don't need to agree with everything you say in order to respect that you have your own opinion. Maybe once you cool off and realize that nothing I have said in this thread was a personal attack on you, you will respect mine as well.

 

As far as past threads go, I'd suggest letting sleeping dogs lie. If, however, you have some sort of lingering issue with me than feel free to PM me about it. I don't think we're going to agree on much outside of a mutual appreciation for Heritage guitars but if you need to get something off your chest, I'm all ears.

 

I have no lingering issues with you. Actually, I have no issues of any kind with you. If I did, I would have PM'd you and told you as much. Your initial posting was replied directly to my "rant" on the cost differences between the GE and the Citation, as opposed to a regular post on the thread. I probably took it as more of a targeted response to me than I should have. If you have a minute or 2, and you are so inclined, go to www.myjazzhome.com Once there click on Gibson and scroll down to the sold items. Then, listed alphabetically you will find a variety of brand names. Once there, scroll to Gibson and then down to the Citation. There are about 5 of them there. Look most specifically at #11 and #15. Check out the bound volute on the back of the head stock. The look at the back of the guitar. Notice that there is no cap on the heel of the neck. The 2 piece maple back goes all the way up and covers the heel. Then, the multi-ply binding goes all the way around . . . IN ONE PIECE . . . the entire back of the guitar. That's incredibly hard to do. Also, you will read in the write up that these 2 were finished in varnish, not nitrocellulous laquer. I'm sure it was done by good ol' Floyd who is still finishing guitars in his 5th decade there at Parsons Street. Only 15 of the original batch were done in varnish. You'll also be able to see some great examples of Johnny Smiths and Super 400s . . . as well as a variety of other guitars from great builders like D'Angelico, D'Aquisto, Benedetto, Buscarino, Campelloni and many many more. I'm pretty much of an arch top junkie and this site is one of my favorites. If you like good eye candy (the stringed type) you'll love this site.

[Patrick]

I will jump (and not take sides) but what JP is talking about is the incredible Heritage Centurion that FresZepp owns, at least I think that is what he means.

 

And for what it's worth, I believe Fred's Centurion could hold it's own.

 

The other part of the thread about Jazz Cats playing Gibson archtops, I think JP was referring to NEW Gibson Archtops. I feel this is a fair question.

I also think we all know that countless incredible jazz guitarist play vintage Gibson archtops.

 

Again, just my .02, I don't have a dog in this fight. And from one who has maybe crossed the line in blind passion and then regretted it, I didn't feel any animosity was presented from either party. Just some good honest discussion.

 

John

 

 

Hey Kuz . . . thanks for the voice of calm and reason. I think JP and I will be OK . . . at least we'll agree not to hurt each other. Sometimes I might get a little too defensive of Gibson when I feel that they or their products are being unfairly bashed. .. . and sometimes I might be wrong when I feel like they are being unfairly bashed. But, there's a lot of great history in that company and more of it is good than bad. There are alot of Katies, Chris', Rays, Marvs, Jims, Floyds, Rens etc. who work there at Gibson that are just as passionate about their craft and their brand as their counter parts at Heritage. Let's not forget those people. The craftsmen and women a Gibson are not a part of the corporate culture that we dislike at Gibson.

[Jazzpunk]

I have no lingering issues with you. Actually, I have no issues of any kind with you. If I did, I would have PM'd you and told you as much. Your initial posting was replied directly to my "rant" on the cost differences between the GE and the Citation, as opposed to a regular post on the thread. I probably took it as more of a targeted response to me than I should have.

 

My posts were not meant to target you personally or to bash Gibson. I was simply thinking out loud about the differences between the Citation and the Heritage. I'm sure the Citation is a fine guitar.

[Jazzpunk]

Per my observations on the jazz scene today I can assure you that I am far from clueless. I listen to tons of jazz, buy a shit load of records and regularly support local and national musicians when they perform live.

 

So many of the classic albums that I enjoy feature pictures of the legendary guitarists cradling their Gibson archtops on the cover. These days however, I am noticing that many jazz artists on the scene choose brands other than Gibson. I'm thinking of players like:

 

Mimi Fox

Wolfgang Muthspiel

Rodney Jones

Russell Malone

Bobby Broom

Henry Johnson

Kurt Rosenwinkel

Bryan Baker

John Scofield

James Muller

Lage Lund

Jimmy Bruno

Peter Bernstein

Mike Moreno

 

 

Those are just off the top of my head but they are all prominent names on the modern jazz guitar scene. I don't know why they are not going with Gibson archtops as their first choice I was simply making an observation. Most of my classic jazz guitar albums feature Gibson guitars. Most of my modern ones do not. No bashing, just observing facts.

 

Two guys that I really dig who play Gibson guitars as their main axe's are Jonathan Kreisberg (ES175) and Adam Rogers (ES335). Both monster players who are doing Gibson proud on the modern scene.

[Jazzpunk]

I forgot to add Pat Martino to the Gibson guys on the jazz scene today...DOH!

[Gitfiddler]

I forgot to add Pat Martino to the Gibson guys on the jazz scene today...DOH!

 

 

Pat Martino is still a Gibson endorsee but would sound incredible playing a cigar box strung with old rubber bands.

He proved that back in his Parker Fly era. (No offense to Fly lovers!)

[Jazzpunk]

Pat Martino is still a Gibson endorsee but would sound incredible playing a cigar box strung with old rubber bands.

He proved that back in his Parker Fly era. (No offense to Fly lovers!)

 

Well everyone I listed would sound great on most guitars I'm sure!

 

I gotta be honest and say I do not care for Martino's tone at all. Nothing to do with his Gibson, I just don't dig how he rolls all the treble off.

 

I do love his tone on 'El Hombre' though. One of my favorite records of all time!

[barrymclark]

Mimi Fox

Wolfgang Muthspiel

Rodney Jones

Russell Malone

Bobby Broom

Henry Johnson

Kurt Rosenwinkel

Bryan Baker

John Scofield

James Muller

Lage Lund

Jimmy Bruno

Peter Bernstein

Mike Moreno

I don't see my name on there. I guess this list is okay if you only like talented musicians.

[Patrick]

Well everyone I listed would sound great on most guitars I'm sure!

 

I gotta be honest and say I do not care for Martino's tone at all. Nothing to do with his Gibson, I just don't dig how he rolls all the treble off.

 

I do love his tone on 'El Hombre' though. One of my favorite records of all time!

 

 

Heaven's sake . . . . we do agree on something I bought Pat Martino's recent CD tribute to Wes Montgomery. Good covers and interpretations of Wes' songs. But I felt like I was listening to my 8 track tape in my '62 Caddy (God . . . there are memories and stains in that car that will last for ever) How could the engineer of that project ever let it go to market with that tone and mix??? Some one needs to tell Pat that Jazz guitar doesn't mean muddy tone. I don't care what the brand of guitar is . . . . his tone needs help.