Rx Luthier

[Spectrum13]

  Yesterday was a good day as my 137 was delivered. After a few hours play, I now begin the setup quest. Siimilar to Jimmythesaint's July posting.

 

  What I learned from the 150 is to measure the relief, adjust the bridge (record) and determine what parts will be changed and in what order. Since we do not get the printout of the plex results  ??? we need a reference point as the guitar ages. 

 

  The sloping stoptail bridge will be my first project so I wonder if anyone out there (in here?) has since figured out why Heritage has the poor coupling sloping tail. I started looking at Farber Tone - Gotoh 510 and Wilkinson as replacements deciding on the Wilkinson for the more conventional look, string grooves, smooth post top and availability in black. One site said the Gotoh worked best on carved tops and I tend to rest my hand on the bridge so the adjustable poles could be abrasive and the new design Farber while interesting, only comes in silver. So first question. Will the Wilkinson posts retro fit? Would it work with with tone pros locking studs?  Any other options? The intonation is good, and tone amazing. My first Korina. Very light.

 

  Second project would be a bone nut, level and dress and possible RS pots and caps upgrade. This part would be better done after some months pass and the wood settles in. I figure something like two truss rod adjustments or onset of some playability issues. Do many of you replace the nut with the first professional set up? I find string spacing and tuning improve but it kind of makes sense to wait for things to settle down first.

 

  While I throughly enjoy these guitars, I realize there is an art in their setup and break-in. Your thoughts, experience and tips are appreciated. 

[cosmikdebriis]

Please check out my thread about bridge and tailpieces in the "family tree" section.

 

Your input would be much appreciated

[Spectrum13]

Good tip cosmikdebriis, I never looked in that section. Since I agree totally on the tonepro, I will order the Wilkinson and yes, I will post the results.

 

Thanks again!

[GuitArtMan]

Stop, don't buy another tailpiece or studs for your H-137 until you go here:

http://www.pigtailmusic.com/

Get his studs for the wrap around bridge.  They are machined for a tight fit.  Do not, I reapeat do not get the TonePro locking studs unless you want hours of frustration trying to adjust them and want to gouge the top of your guitar in the process.  I've been meaning to post about this but just haven't had a chance to get around to it.

[plexirocker 68]

The pigtail stuff is very good and hard to beat.  For me thoughThe Tone Pros locking studs made all the difference in the world for my G#$%^& les paul jr. I had the slope. The locking studs will make it level. There still is some play between the posts and threads that go into the body but the tailpiece itself is now level, no longer being pulled up. This improved intonation and playability a BUNCH.  I would recommend these FIRST for any one with a wrap tail guitar. You'll definately notice a sustain increase. These are really an amazing and cheap upgrade.

 

My recent H150 had the pinging nut problem. I changes the strings a couple times, played it a bit and it worked itself out just fine. I do my set ups slowly,  see how I like it for awhile first. Then one day it's Whammo and I'm good to go.

 

I personally don't like the bone nuts. On acoustics yes, electrics no. The great vintage electrics for the most part didn't use bone.

 

I would give it some time. I have had 2 recent Heritages and they didn't need a lick of any fret work at all. My intonation is dead on with the stock nuts.

 

Anyhow I just thought I'd offer up my approach. ;D

 

plexi

[Spectrum13]

GuitArtMan,

 

    After visiting the family tree I ordered the Wilkinson based on the recommendations. I just called Grahm to tell him the 137 in came packaged perfectly,l looked and sounded great. When I asked about the tailpiece he said it has a slop for a reason...being it gives the best string angle to the take off points and will intonate right. As the factory has been doing this for over 50 years it is as intended. Mine did not have the pigtail, looks like a stop tail with ridges. But I will hold off on the tone pros, protect the top and for only $34, I'll see how it works.

[GuitArtMan]

The Pigtail is a reliaively new bridge - several years at best - no way Heritage has been using them for 50 years.  The 137 used to come stock with the Pigtail bridge - did they stop using them?  But yes, Heritage did use a loose fitting set of studs that caused the bridge to lean.  The Pigtail studs are tight fitting and took care of this and are much, Much, MUCH easier to adjust than the P.O.S. TonePros locking studs - yuch!

[GuitArtMan]

The pigtail stuff is very good and hard to beat.  For me thoughThe Tone Pros locking studs made all the difference in the world for my G#$%^& les paul jr. I had the slope. The locking studs will make it level. There still is some play between the posts and threads that go into the body but the tailpiece itself is now level, no longer being pulled up. This improved intonation and playability a BUNCH.  I would recommend these FIRST for any one with a wrap tail guitar. You'll definately notice a sustain increase. These are really an amazing and cheap upgrade.

 

My recent H150 had the pinging nut problem. I changes the strings a couple times, played it a bit and it worked itself out just fine. I do my set ups slowly,  see how I like it for awhile first. Then one day it's Whammo and I'm good to go.

 

I personally don't like the bone nuts. On acoustics yes, electrics no. The great vintage electrics for the most part didn't use bone.

 

I would give it some time. I have had 2 recent Heritages and they didn't need a lick of any fret work at all. My intonation is dead on with the stock nuts.

 

Anyhow I just thought I'd offer up my approach. ;D

 

plexi

I liked the locking capabilty of the TonePros studs, but they are such a gawd damned pain in the ass to adjust I couldn't stand them.  The Pigtai studs are machined to much closer toloerances, take care of the lean problem as the bridge fits snug and are a breeze to adjust. 

[cosmikdebriis]

What about something suitable for an LP/150 with individual string height adjustment?

[Spectrum13]

Mine did not come with the pigtail (nice bridge... aluminum not too wide and adjustable) and I could only speculate as to the change in factory specs, it is a 2007 build. 50 years experience refers to the placement of the post holes relative to the nut. The intonation was spot on without screw adjustment (flush with the stud) and molded takeoff points.

 

Only my theory but with precision placement, the more elaborate solutions to a problem that does not exist provide flexability and opportunity for best aesthetics and ergonomics. Down the road this could all change as the wood matures. I could understand building in the rocking part as there is less contact with the metal as the strings leave the rear of the unit and reaches the takeoff points. My problem could be associated with seeking best bridge contact and ergonomics.     

[111518]

Cosmikdebris' question raises an interesting engineering problem, that I'd never really thought about.  In the limited amount of space offered by a stud mounted bridge, how do you make saddles that move individually front to back AND up and down AND are secured at the point of adjustment?  You couldn't simply add another dimension to the way a tunamatic works --movement up and down is prevented by the fact that the threaded rods on which the saddles move forward and backward are fixed at both ends (in an ABR by string tension)  Fender does it by spring loading the front to back adjustment, and threading the up and down ... but a tunamatic doesn't give enough space to spring load each saddle --you'd have to make it much wider, and it would be cantelevered towards the rear to give room for springs behind the saddles.  (Guitarists wouldn't buy it, because it wouldn't look traditional.)  I can't think of a very elegant solution, or even a complex one that wouldn't involve having to remove the bridge to turn screws from underneath.  Neither, to the best of my knowledge, has anyone else.  The bridge on the new Taylor solidbodies claims to address this issue, but from the ads it looks like you have to take it apart to adjust it, and it's not stud mounted.  I know we have a bunch of technically oriented people on HOC; here's a guitar hardware chance to conceive a better mousetrap.  Any ideas?

[tulk1]

Can someone post a pic of what your discussing? Thanks.

[Spectrum13]

111518

 

  Come to think of it, I only see 12 inch radius aftermarket replacements available and not much in the way of spare saddles. Pigtail does not sell individual saddles so you would need to file which does not give much room. With Fender, replacement necks could be 7-12 or compound so you need the range. G-style set neck stoptails would all need to be 12s except the PRS are 10 so yes it looks like you arrived at an undiscovered problem in need of an innovative solution. Sorry, I lack the technology to post photos.

   

[cosmikdebriis]

Can someone post a pic of what your discussing? Thanks.

 

I'll work on a picture, but for the moment I'll try an explanation.

 

If you look at a standard LP type bridge. There are two adjustments.

 

No:1 Height... By adjusting the thumb wheels at either end of the bridge you can raise or lower the strings above the fretboard. You can raise one side more than the other and it is common for the bottom E end to be higher than the top E.

 

No: 2 Intonation... Mounted into the bridge are individual "saddles" on which the strings sit. Each of these saddles can be adjusted back and forwards by means of a screw and spring arrangement. This individual adjustment allows the "intonation" of each string to be adjusted individually. (intonation is, to put it simply, making sure that a note at the 12th fret is exactly an octave of the open string).

 

On the whole this system works fairly well. However what it lacks is the ability to adjust the string height individually. So, for instance, to raise the third string I have to adjust both thumb wheels which affects all the strings.

 

Now if you look at a standard Stratocaster bridge then, in adition to an adjustment for intonation (similar to an LP Bridge) there are a couple of grub screws at either end of each saddle which you can wind up or down to adjust individual string height.

 

It is something akin to this that I am looking for in an LP bridge.

 

Clear as mud? 

[111518]

Clear but not exactly correct.  (Sorry, but since this is about engineering, details matter.)  There are not springs on ABR or Nashville Bridges, or on pigtails or other one-piece tunamatic/bridge type hardware.  The saddles are threaded, move back and forth on saddle screws (I called them threaded rods in an earlier post), and are kept from wandering (or in the case of ABR's --falling out once you lose the retaining wire) by string tension.  There's not room for springs, which is, I think, part of why the Fender solution is not easily applied to this type of bridge, which has to be pretty narrow to rest on posts.  With springs, you can free one end of the saddle screw to float (screwed into the saddle, but not anchored at its end), and allow the other to pass through an unthreaded hole, and thus you can move it up and down.  If both ends of the saddle screw are anchored/clipped in the bridge, or designed to be held tight to it, then raising or lowering them means bending the adjustment screw, breaking the clip that holds one end, or forcing the screw out of its slot (again, on ABRs)

 

I could draw this, I guess, but I don't have time today to do that and post it --sorry to start something I can't finish. 

[cosmikdebriis]

Aha... Just checked my gibbon and you're right. However on some of my Greco LP copys and Yamaha's there are springs.

 

In this design the saddle is threaded but the screw is loose in the holes in the bridge.

 

Doesn't allow for any other adjustment though :'(

 

I'm working on that... Some sort of cam arrangement perhaps?

[SouthpawGuy]

Clear but not exactly correct.  (Sorry, but since this is about engineering, details matter.)  There are not springs on ABR or Nashville Bridges, or on pigtails or other one-piece tunamatic/bridge type hardware.  The saddles are threaded, move back and forth on saddle screws (I called them threaded rods in an earlier post), and are kept from wandering (or in the case of ABR's --falling out once you lose the retaining wire) by string tension.  There's not room for springs, which is, I think, part of why the Fender solution is not easily applied to this type of bridge, which has to be pretty narrow to rest on posts.  With springs, you can free one end of the saddle screw to float (screwed into the saddle, but not anchored at its end), and allow the other to pass through an unthreaded hole, and thus you can move it up and down.  If both ends of the saddle screw are anchored/clipped in the bridge, or designed to be held tight to it, then raising or lowering them means bending the adjustment screw, breaking the clip that holds one end, or forcing the screw out of its slot (again, on ABRs)

 

I could draw this, I guess, but I don't have time today to do that and post it --sorry to start something I can't finish. 

 

111518, cosmik ....

I had a Gbrand ES-335 Dot in the mid '90s, bought it new and it suffered from bass string fart.

That is to say that every time I played a low E or even an F the guitar would resonate loudly i.e. fart.

I thought it was the pickups or something loose inside the guitar.

In fact it was the low E string saddle vibrating in the bridge.

The solution was to get some very small springs and cut them to size, approximately 1/8" long and 1/8" internal diameter ( 3mm long and 3mm I.D.) These were mounted inside the bridge to tension the saddles.

As I worked in engineering at the time this was easily done to all 6 saddles.

In fact in the 335 bridge all of the saddles were held in place by a single clip spring running across the bridge, if you turned the guitar over with no strings on it all of the saddles would fall out.

 

Hope this helps.

[cosmikdebriis]

111518, cosmik ....

I had a Gbrand ES-335 Dot in the mid '90s, bought it new and it suffered from bass string fart.

That is to say that every time I played a low E or even an F the guitar would resonate loudly i.e. fart.

I thought it was the pickups or something loose inside the guitar.

In fact it was the low E string saddle vibrating in the bridge.

The solution was to get some very small springs and cut them to size, approximately 1/8" long and 1/8" internal diameter ( 3mm long and 3mm I.D.) These were mounted inside the bridge to tension the saddles.

As I worked in engineering at the time this was easily done to all 6 saddles.

In fact in the 335 bridge all of the saddles were held in place by a single clip spring running across the bridge, if you turned the guitar over with no strings on it all of the saddles would fall out.

 

Hope this helps.

 

There's a new thread on this... Get involved... With an engineering background your help could be invaluable.

 

Oddly enough I did engineering at college, Milling and Turning. The job was just too boring though

[SouthpawGuy]

There's a new thread on this... Get involved... With an engineering background your help could be invaluable.

 

Oddly enough I did engineering at college, Milling and Turning. The job was just too boring though

 

I don't even have time to put the kettle on now and there's a new thread on this, a new thread on that ... it's gettin' kinda lively around here lately.

[Paul P]

Here's one with height-adjustable saddles :

 

http://www.allparts.com/store/guitar-bridg...010,Product.asp

 

I don't know anything about it, just happened across it a while back.

 

Paul P

[111518]

Thanks, Paul P. --I've never seen this bridge before.  Too bad the ad doesn't show a front or back, so you could see how it works.  I'm guessing the saddle screws must be able to slide up and down in some sort of slots or groves.  I was thinking that there would not be room to put set screws on both sides of the string groove on a tunamatic-size saddle --but obviously I was wrong.    Cool ...there already IS a better mousetrap, at least if it works.